Gemma Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 I have a question for Gemma: Why did you feel the need to put the following information on your website? "***Please note that there is nothing "fake" about Cloister Outreach; their proposed/emerging charisms; or Gemma. She is in good standing with her local Chancery, which receives a yearly update on Cloister Outreach activities. She uses an internet moniker to protect her family. Our detractors have never spoken directly to us. Please pray for them.***" That was under the advice of our spiritual director. And our critics had never emailed us directly. Our counsel has said that some of the posts detracting me are actually civil cases of libel. Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 @Gemma: I think the reason why some people are suspicious is because you seem so hesitant to provide specific names, locations, and details. We all understand the need for confidentiality for individuals, but as things appear in your PM posts and on your websites, there is no external, third-party "vetting" of you or your organization. Additionally, at least so far as I know (which, frankly, isn't far), this isn't the usual way that new orders are founded. Your own centrality to the endeavor is, I think, what is causing some people to suspect that you are either running a scam or starting a cult. Your blog gives a biography of you, which, aside from the abbesses of established communities, I have never seen before. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong here and this is actually common.) Your posts and websites make copious references to different spiritualities and drop the most frequent "discernment words" all over ("charism" and the like). Typically, a new order or community of the faithful has a focused, narrow spirituality, rather than one that draws from many different traditions. Yours also seems to draw from many lesser-known traditions, which also makes one suspicious, because it's easy for an unwitting discerner to see the reference to them and just say, "Oh, I've never heard of that..." and just keep reading, trusting that you're legit. Finally, things with your organization appear to be very "up in the air". There's a whole lotta use of the future tense on your websites. Again, if I'm not mistaken, the accepted way of establishing a religious organization (association of the faithful, religious order, etc.) is to get a few interested people to commit, get the approval of a bishop, and THEN advertise. This, I think, is one more reason why people are suspicious. You've posted in several places on PM. I'm not gonna lie: The first time I clicked through to your website, I thought, "Hmm. Something seems fishy here." I don't know much about Catholicism yet, and I don't typically trust my intuition, and even so, I closed the window. So, if you are legit—and I'm not saying you're not; I really hope you are!—then you've got some work to do in communicating that clearly to the public! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Curiousing--thank you and God bless and reward you for your generosity in following grace to discernment. Welcome home to Rome. What third party is supposed to be vetting CO or CONF? These founders have a right to privacy, and I will not expose them until they are ready to answer questions. They have to know where they are going before they can lead others. They want me to field inquiries before I refer people to them. What obscure spiritualities are you talking about? Everything I have been inspired to propose utilizes approved devotions. The Flame of Love has an imprimatur. The Cloisterite spirituality is drawn from all charisms because we represent/promote all charisms. To those who have the call, it makes sense. Whenever we find something that we aren't attracted to, we are usually better off saying, "That's nice, but it isn't for me." Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Discipulus Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 (edited) The affiliate new foundations are going to be forming their own private association, then eventually go to public association, which requires a board of directors. They are also going to put into the statutes that they plan to be a personal prelature. Then we can incubate on our own property and mission when they are ready. Gemma, I apologise if I'm adding to the list of questions being asked of you here, but the above confused me. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you say that part of the Cloisterite family aims at becoming a personal prelature. There is only one personal prelature in the church at present, namely Opus Dei; and theirs is a privileged, demanding and complex postion which is faciliated by their worldwide membership and highly efficient management and organisation. The SSPX has apparently been offered this status if they reconcile to the Church in relation to their doctrinal disagreements, but without prejudice to that, this kind of canonical recognition is (very clearly) exceptionally rare, and is centred on clerical involvement: namely, a substantial number of clergy, seminary facilities for training them, and the fulfilment of pastoral or other ministries that are essential to those places in which the prelature is domiciled and which is overseen by the local bishop or bishops. For people not familiar with this area of church law, the relevant canons are available at http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P10.HTM Perhaps I'm missing the point of your comments above, but as someone with an interest in canon law (an interest, not an expertise, I should add) I don't understand how an association can plan or undertake to become a prelature. It requires resources that are typically well beyond those of most (probably all) private or public associations and requires many thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of members and/or supporters to be a realistic proposition. In what way is the Cloisterite family positioned to engage in this kind of a structure? Do you have even a single cleric associated with the family? Looking forward to your responses, and with best wishes to you. Edited December 14, 2012 by Discipulus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Gemma, I apologise if I'm adding to the list of questions being asked of you here, but the above confused me. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you say that part of the Cloisterite family aims at becoming a personal prelature. There is only one personal prelature in the church at present, namely Opus Dei; and theirs is a privileged, demanding and complex postion which is faciliated by their worldwide membership and highly efficient management and organisation. The SSPX has apparently been offered this status if they reconcile to the Church in relation to their doctrinal disagreements, but without prejudice to that, this kind of canonical recognition is (very clearly) exceptionally rare, and is centred on clerical involvement: namely, a substantial number of clergy, seminary facilities for training them, and the fulfilment of pastoral or other ministries that are essential to those places in which the prelature is domiciled and which is overseen by the local bishop or bishops. For people not familiar with this area of church law, the relevant canons are available at http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P10.HTM Perhaps I'm missing the point of your comments above, but as someone with an interest in canon law (an interest, not an expertise, I should add) I don't understand how an association can plan or undertake to become a prelature. It requires resources that are typically well beyond those of most (nearly all) religious institutes and requires many thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of members and/or supporters to be a realistic proposition. In what way is the Cloisterite family positioned to engage in this kind of a structure? Do you have even a single cleric associated with the family? Looking forward to your responses, and with best wishes to you. As I understand it, the organization puts it in their statutes that they plan to be a personal prelature. This is what the ODAN site said, and some other sites I have researched. Since we already have men involved in some of the charisms, we are planning on having a seminary. This has long been the plan for CONF. (We just accepted one who will be working with the AIDS project). Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 As an aside, the Cloisterite Family is a charism within CONF. Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deusluxmea Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Gemma, Can you clarify who exactly is "we"? I often see you use the plural pronoun in your posts, and it is frustrating that I do not know if you are posting as yourself or on behalf of individuals who are not present in the discussion. DLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 Gemma, Can you clarify who exactly is "we"? I often see you use the plural pronoun in your posts, and it is frustrating that I do not know if you are posting as yourself or on behalf of individuals who are not present in the discussion. DLM Depends on the post. "We" usually refers to either those of us who work to move CO forward or the CONF affiliate founders. Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 Gemma, will you continue from the above post to answer the questions you have not yet addressed, or would you like me to reiterate them bit by bit over time? Sister Laurel, Er Dio Stillsong Hermitage Diocese of Oaklandhttp://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com At this juncture, that may be the best course. I will be surrounded by family from now until after the first of the year. Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 What third party is supposed to be vetting CO or CONF? These founders have a right to privacy, and I will not expose them until they are ready to answer questions. They have to know where they are going before they can lead others. They want me to field inquiries before I refer people to them. By "third party" I mean someone within the Church. On this page: http://cloisters.tripod.com/ there is the following quote: "We appreciate that your group wants to disseminate accurate information about the religious life for those who are discerning possible vocations." Rev. Msgr. Camille Perl, Secretary Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei" The placement of the quote implies that "your group" refers to CO. Can you upload this letter from Msgr. Perl in full to PM so that people can see it? That would provide "third-party" verification. This page: http://cloisters.tripod.com/id1.html states: "In the meantime, after a conference with her bishop, Gemma started developing the way of life for the Nuns of Our Lady of the Cloister (Cloisterites) in the privacy of her own home, while researching resources for the comatose and their families." Who is your bishop? Who is your SD? I find it hard to believe that these people would not be willing to be identified with CO if they indeed approve it. The same page states: "In 1990, Gemma received a verbal Nihil Obstat of the SOLC lay association statutes from Bishop Anthony J. O'Connell. " Can anyone verify that there is indeed such a thing as a "verbal Nihil Obstat". I have never heard of one, but again, I'm new to this stuff. Gemma, could you provide a letter from Bishop O'Connell for PMers to review? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 By "third party" I mean someone within the Church. On this page: http://cloisters.tripod.com/ there is the following quote:"We appreciate that your group wants to disseminate accurate information about the religious life for those who are discerning possible vocations." Rev. Msgr. Camille Perl, Secretary Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei" The placement of the quote implies that "your group" refers to CO. Can you upload this letter from Msgr. Perl in full to PM so that people can see it? That would provide "third-party" verification. This page: http://cloisters.tripod.com/id1.html states: "In the meantime, after a conference with her bishop, Gemma started developing the way of life for the Nuns of Our Lady of the Cloister (Cloisterites) in the privacy of her own home, while researching resources for the comatose and their families." Who is your bishop? Who is your SD? I find it hard to believe that these people would not be willing to be identified with CO if they indeed approve it. The same page states: "In 1990, Gemma received a verbal Nihil Obstat of the SOLC lay association statutes from Bishop Anthony J. O'Connell. " Can anyone verify that there is indeed such a thing as a "verbal Nihil Obstat". I have never heard of one, but again, I'm new to this stuff. Gemma, could you provide a letter from Bishop O'Connell for PMers to review? I cannot scan the letter from Msgr Perl b/c of the confidential information contained in it. The only reason letters are given by a bishop are so ppl can seek non-profit status. I am not at liberty to reveal Bishop O'C's whereabouts due to his having fallen from grace during the sex abuse scandals (for which he had repented long before the situation came up). The time in question is 1988. My SD at the time was a diocesan priest for the Diocese of Knoxville. He took the position b/c O'C asked him to. I also had reference to a Dominican friar whom I had befriended at St Louis Bertrand's in Louisville, KY. He was also our Third Order Dominican chaplain. CO has been in operation since 1988. We have lived in other dioceses since then, and have been in NC since 1996. Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deusluxmea Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Again with the "we"! Are you talking about yourself living in other dioceses or yourself and the other nameless CONF affiliate founders living in other dioceses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWW Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Bishop Anthony O'Connell died on 4 May 2012, at Mepkin Trappist Abbey, following a long illness of melanoma cancer. He had been living there under supervision since his 2002 resignation, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 I cannot scan the letter from Msgr Perl b/c of the confidential information contained in it. The only reason letters are given by a bishop are so ppl can seek non-profit status. I am not at liberty to reveal Bishop O'C's whereabouts due to his having fallen from grace during the sex abuse scandals (for which he had repented long before the situation came up). The time in question is 1988. My SD at the time was a diocesan priest for the Diocese of Knoxville. He took the position b/c O'C asked him to. I also had reference to a Dominican friar whom I had befriended at St Louis Bertrand's in Louisville, KY. He was also our Third Order Dominican chaplain. CO has been in operation since 1988. We have lived in other dioceses since then, and have been in NC since 1996. Blessings, Gemma It is possible to scan a letter into a PDF and black-highlight portions that are confidential. Will you do this? Could YOU contact Bishop O'Connell and have him provide a letter that you could upload? You did not answer the questions: What is your bishop's name, the one that approves CO? What is your SD's name? Providing names and hard evidence will go a long way to legitimizing CO, Gemma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Bishop Anthony O'Connell died on 4 May 2012, at Mepkin Trappist Abbey, following a long illness of melanoma cancer. He had been living there under supervision since his 2002 resignation, Well nevermind about contacting him then! May he rest in peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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