When Did Personal Responsibility Become More Important Than Helping Ot

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1352602161' post='2507979']
i guess i missed the part of you actually fighting something. can you enlighten me to what you have done to fight this so called injustice?
[/quote]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1352600239' post='2507964']
You aren't fighting anything. You're just here to be a boor and a blowhard.
[/quote]

I only exist on PM, apparently.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1352221869' post='2505170']
You are given the money her son inherited. It's called taxes. It's how your government functions.
[/quote]


You assume too much. I am a self employed contractor and have never recieved anything from the government. There is no unemployment benefits for the self employed, I suppose there may be some programs one could apply for to take advantage of government waste, although personally I would feel like a mooch to receive money that was seized through confiscatory taxes at anothers expense. I have suffered for 3 years with this economy yet I have never once considered legal theft when I am able to work for a living. Perhaps its my background as the great grandson of an Irish immigrant, we value ourselves as men able to trade sweat equity for money. My father worked until he turned 81 years old and needed a pacemaker defribulator , then he had to retire due to health reasons, he was a self made man and proud of his ability to contribute to society and was not one to want a handout.

ed

[Ed Normile]

I was just reading the " streets highways and military " post. LOL, taxes that are spent on that enable all to use that infrastructure for their business, travel, and even seeking healthcare such as going to the hospital. The military is there to insure your safety and freedoms, not just for those who do not or can not contribute through work but for all the people in the country.

ed

[Ed Normile]

Some interesting biblical passages about work and personal responsibility.


[b] [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thessalonians+3%3A10&version=ESV"]2 Thessalonians 3:10[/url][/b]

For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.



[b] [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+14%3A23&version=ESV"]Proverbs 14:23[/url][/b]

In all toil there is profit, but mere talk tends only to poverty.



[b] [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+10%3A4&version=ESV"]Proverbs 10:4[/url][/b]

A slack hand causes poverty, but the hand of the diligent makes rich.

[b] [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+21%3A25&version=ESV"]Proverbs 21:25[/url][/b]

The desire of the sluggard kills him, for his hands refuse to labor

[b] [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+12%3A11&version=ESV"]Proverbs 12:11[/url][/b]

Whoever works his land will have plenty of bread, but he who follows worthless pursuits lacks sense.

[b] [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+5%3A8&version=ESV"]1 Timothy 5:8[/url][/b]

But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever

[b] [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+13%3A4&version=ESV"]Proverbs 13:4[/url] [/b]

The soul of the sluggard craves and gets nothing, while the soul of the diligent is richly supplied.

[b] [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+128%3A2&version=ESV"]Psalm 128:2[/url] [/b]

You shall eat the fruit of the labor of your hands; you shall be blessed, and it shall be well with you.

[b] [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A29&version=ESV"]Proverbs 22:29[/url] [/b]

Do you see a man skillful in his work? He will stand before kings; he will not stand before obscure men.

[b] [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Thessalonians+4%3A9-12&version=ESV"]1 Thessalonians 4:9-12[/url][/b]

Now concerning brotherly love you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another, for that indeed is what you are doing to all the brothers throughout Macedonia. But we urge you, brothers, to do this more and more, and to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you, so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one.

[b] [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+4%3A28&version=ESV"]Ephesians 4:28[/url][/b]

Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.

[b] [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thessalonians+3%3A6-9&version=ESV"]2 Thessalonians 3:6-9[/url][/b]

Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate.



[b] [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+2%3A15&version=ESV"]Genesis 2:15[/url][/b]

The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.

It seems the Bible is very clear of the need for and the value of personal responsibility and work.

ed

[Anomaly]

Genisis 3 19

By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken;

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1352610278' post='2508033']
I was just reading the " streets highways and military " post. LOL, taxes that are spent on that enable all to use that infrastructure for their business, travel, and even seeking healthcare such as going to the hospital. The military is there to insure your safety and freedoms, not just for those who do not or can not contribute through work but for all the people in the country.

ed
[/quote]

that is still something the government provides for you when you give your tax money. do you think its unjust to tax citizen so the government can build roads, provide a military, provide a saftey net for the least of our brothers, public schools(there are not enough private schools for every single united states citizen), police officer, firefighters, emts and paramedics and so on. without taxation we would not have fire fighters. fire fighting is a not for profit business. fire does not make money. emts and paramedics can make money but even those private companies in the inner cities have to be subsidesed by tax dollars because to many people have no insurance and no money to pay for the ambulance ride.

if the government did not tax people how would we provide for the things listed above? private ownership of military, police, fire, emts and paramedics, roads would be a horrible disaster. private ownership of schools would be a good thing but right now that's not possible because if tomorrow we shut down all public schools there would not be enough room in private schools for children and then they would be forced to stay home and not be allowed an education.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1352610278' post='2508033']
I was just reading the " streets highways and military " post. LOL, taxes that are spent on that enable all to use that infrastructure for their business, travel, and even seeking healthcare such as going to the hospital. The military is there to insure your safety and freedoms, not just for those who do not or can not contribute through work but for all the people in the country.

ed
[/quote]

double post because pushing buttons confuses me.

Edited November 11, 2012 by havok579257

[Anomaly]

I happily pay taxes to the Government along with other atheists, agnostics, baptists, Hindus, Jews, Methodists, wiccans, etc to help those who CAN'T work. It is bothersome when the large organization inherent policy makes no distinction between cant or won't, enables large scale irresponsibility, at creates a dependent population to garner a voting base.

It would be idiotic of me to see the flaws and choose to eliminate all taxes, eliminate Government, eliminate Government aid, refuse to ask things get fixed. It would be just as idiotic to consider anyone calling for the system to make a distinction between can't work and won't work, and acknowledging the effect if creating dependency on others charitable largess.

But that's just my opinion.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Anomaly

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1352615492' post='2508057']
that is still something the government provides for you when you give your tax money. do you think its unjust to tax citizen so the government can build roads, provide a military, provide a saftey net for the least of our brothers, public schools(there are not enough private schools for every single united states citizen), police officer, firefighters, emts and paramedics and so on. without taxation we would not have fire fighters. fire fighting is a not for profit business. fire does not make money. emts and paramedics can make money but even those private companies in the inner cities have to be subsidesed by tax dollars because to many people have no insurance and no money to pay for the ambulance ride.

if the government did not tax people how would we provide for the things listed above? private ownership of military, police, fire, emts and paramedics, roads would be a horrible disaster. private ownership of schools would be a good thing but right now that's not possible because if tomorrow we shut down all public schools there would not be enough room in private schools for children and then they would be forced to stay home and not be allowed an education.
[/quote]
Utilitarian justification isn't compatible with Catholic morality.

Fire chiefs make 6 digit salaries. Insurance is a for profit business, as is security, and there are for profit fire departments. Absolute nonsense to say firefighting is not for profit. 80% of a typical municipal fire department's budget goes to salaries.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Winchester

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1352652079' post='2508127']

Fire chiefs make 6 digit salaries. Insurance is a for profit business, as is security, and there are for profit fire departments. Absolute nonsense to say firefighting is not for profit. 80% of a typical municipal fire department's budget goes to salaries.
[/quote]
We should be honest here though; at least half of it is hush money for the people you 'rescue'.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1352609884' post='2508031']I am a self employed contractor and have never recieved anything from the government.
[/quote]
Except for the government itself. What paid for the immigration officials who processed your Irish great grandfather at Ellis Island when he got here? Money taken from other people (aka taxes) paid for those officials.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Era Might

[Era Might]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1352609884' post='2508031']My father worked until he turned 81 years old and needed a pacemaker defribulator , then he had to retire due to health reasons, he was a self made man and proud of his ability to contribute to society and was not one to want a handout.
[/quote]
Your father and great grandfather sound like stand up guys. But people in so-called third world countries work just as hard in much tougher conditions. I know a man who survives on a modest coffee field in Central America and raised 7 kids. He lives in the mountains where there isn't even electricity. Everyone has a story to tell. What's the difference between America and other countries? Well, there's lots of differences, but one of them is the civil infrastructure which taxes support, and which everyone benefits from (including you).

There is ambition in every country. There is no shortage of men in so-called third world countries with ambition to create industry. But without the civil infrastructure to support and regulate work and industry, then you get corruption and oppression.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Era Might

[Era Might]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1352610278' post='2508033']The military is there to insure your safety and freedoms, not just for those who do not or can not contribute through work but for all the people in the country.[/quote]
And if I don't want the military to ensure my safety and freedoms, and would rather ensure it myself, can I withhold my tax money from the military? Why should I take a handout for my safety and freedom and not for my bread and butter?

Edited November 11, 2012 by Era Might

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1352603250' post='2507987']



I only exist on PM, apparently.
[/quote]

please enlighten us what fighting you are actively doing.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1352669336' post='2508208']
please enlighten us what fighting you are actively doing.
[/quote]
In what world is this relevant as to whether or not what he is saying is correct?
That is like me prefacing every single religious debate by asking how many times the other party has been to Mass in the last month.