When Did Personal Responsibility Become More Important Than Helping Ot

[Nihil Obstat]

Thanks.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351879190' post='2503024']
I think one thing people need to recognize is that enforcing justice CAN mean enforcing charity. sure we should to make voluntary charities so super-effective that there is no injustice left; but so long as there is injustice left the government can enforce justice on the situation. the Catholic doctrine that the resources of the earth are meant for mankind as a whole means that there is absolutely justification in Catholic morality for recognizing that when some people are unable to get by but others have more than enough to do so, justice demands that the excess wealth be used to help the less fortunate. because that's a matter of justice, the government can certainly enforce it. it's an uncomfortable truth for those of us who lean more libertarian like myself, and there are certainly various systems that this can be accomplished under so you don't have to be a dirty keynsian or a socialist or a democrat, but it's a fact that Catholic Social Teaching absolutely recognizes and whatever system we adopt we need to recognize it--the demands of justice mean that charity is not just a nice extra little non-obligatory thing that rich people can choose to do with their money if they wish to, it's an absolute requirement of justice.
[/quote]
The problem I have with this view is that the Gospel is not about giving "excess wealth" it's about giving all your wealth to the poor. That's the difference between Christian charity and social justice. One is about becoming Christ, the other is about earthly issues like "excess wealth" and allocating resources. "You will always have the poor with you" means to me that, even if we eradicated poverty as a social problem, Christians themselves would have to become the poor, because that is what the Gospel is about. You can't enforce charity because it is not about earthly things, really...as St. Paul said, even if I give all my goods to the poor and give my body to be burned, but have not charity, it profits me nothing. Power is not a basis for charity, and that's what government is...organized power. It has its uses on earth, but charity isn't one of them. And that's what the conservative demand for "private charity" would accomplish, a loosely federated society where the the role of Christian charity becomes about earthly power as it assumes the role of a government. In charity, your heart DOES matter (as St. Paul's words imply). In government / justice, frankly, I don't care whether the government has warm feelings about what it's doing, because I'm not asking for charity, I'm demanding justice.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Era Might

[Aloysius]

you should read GK Chesterton's biography of St. Francis of Assisi.

[dUSt]

Still trying to figure out who Ot is and why we need to help him.

[havok579257]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351896480' post='2503144']
Still trying to figure out who Ot is and why we need to help him.
[/quote]

others. the forum cut it off.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351896207' post='2503143']
you should read GK Chesterton's biography of St. Francis of Assisi.
[/quote]
Sounds like fun what's it called.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1351900313' post='2503187']
Sounds like fun what's it called.
[/quote]
St. Francis of Assisi: The Autobiography - By G.K. Chesterton.

Naw, I do not know what it is called.

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1351900313' post='2503187']
Sounds like fun what's it called.
[/quote]


St. Francis of Assisi

[4588686]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1351836097' post='2502793']

I just think that private parties like the Catholic Church are much better at doing so. I don't think that the government is the most efficient or trustworthy means of doing any of this. I think that private organizations, particularly religious communities, ought to be rewarded for doing so. I think private individuals should be rewarded as well and so I support tax breaks for individuals who give to the poor. I think that Catholics in particular have a responsibility. That's why I make sure my family tithes. When I wasn't swamped in work I used to volunteer all the time and hope to get my kids to do the same.[/QUOTE]

That sounds great. So let's do some quick math. There are approximately 450,000 churches in the United States. That covers everything from a cathedral to some tiny Baptist Church with three families in it. Medicare and Medicaid cost about $835,000,000,000. That comes out to about $1,855,555 per church. Every year.

[4588686]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1351866505' post='2502914']
havok,
It's about respecting the property rights of people who labor for their property and the fact that although giving to the poor may be a moral obligation, there is no logical provison that it must be done against their will.[/QUOTE]

True. There's also no logical provision that the right to property must be respected. We're not dealing with 'logical provisions' when we're discussing morals and social constructions.

[southern california guy]

Maybe I misunderstand the question but I think that a change began back in Biblical times. Jesus Christ really emphasized helping others. When asked what we need to do to have eternal life he told the story of the Samaritan helping the man who had been robbed and beaten. "Loving thy neighbor" seemed to mean supporting and helping thy neighbor. Not praying for them, not worrying about the neighbor, but physically helping.

Then Paul came after Jesus's death and started arguing that we are saved by "belief" (An internal sort of thing). Not charity, not helping others, not spending time with others -- but rather focusing on ourselves. It seems to me that it became "It's all about me and my own salvation." Paul even argued against focusing on good deeds because he argued then you could become caught up with trying to earn your way into heaven.

Like the "Christians" (Protestants) teach. The only thing that matters is you -- and that you believe that Jesus is God -- and then you will go to heaven not matter what!!!!

[Socrates]

Christ commands personal giving to others.

He does not command forced government redistribution of the property of others, which is neither charity nor justice.


The modern welfare state violates the principle of subsidiarity, and in the long run does nothing to end poverty.


From John Paul II, in[i] Centesimus Annus[/i]:
[quote]


In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called "Welfare State". This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the "Social Assistance State". Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html#$2S"]100[/url]
[b]By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending. In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbours to those in need.[/b] It should be added that certain kinds of demands often call for a response which is not simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human need. One thinks of the condition of refugees, immigrants, the elderly, the sick, and all those in circumstances which call for assistance, such as drug abusers: all these people can be helped effectively only by those who offer them genuine fraternal support, in addition to the necessary care.


[/quote]


Regarding the op, I must have missed wherever people were claiming we should not help others.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1352067146' post='2504083']
Christ commands personal giving to others.

He does not command forced government redistribution of the property of others, which is neither charity nor justice.


The modern welfare state violates the principle of subsidiarity, and in the long run does nothing to end poverty.


From John Paul II, in[i] Centesimus Annus[/i]:



Regarding the op, I must have missed wherever people were claiming we should not help others.
[/quote]

frequently and i mean frequently on these boards people make posts about how if someone does not have health insurance which in this country means denial of healthcare that is not life threatening then its to bad but we should not have to shoulder the burden and waste our money. Same when it comes to entitlement programs.(paraphrasing)

Here's the thing, there is a class of people who do use entitlements and really need them. Its a bigger class of people then most on here think. The churhc teaches we need to have a preferrential treatment for the poor. That seems to get lost on here when it comes to people having to pay the big bad government some of their hard earned money.

The fact is the united states government does waste a ton of money but also and here is the thing most on here forget, it does a ton of good for the poor. People seem to lose sight of this and it seems political philosophy trumps moral obligations. A perfect example is how many people are against a universal healthcare program(i am not talking about obamacare, i am talking about the principle of universal healthcare) because it means taking their money away from them. Although the church is for healthcare for all. The u.s bishops have been pushing for universal healthcare for all for almost a hundread years. Although when it comes to people losing money through taxes which is the only way universal healthcare would work, they are against it. moral obligation falls by the wayside when it means lose of personal money to taxes.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1351835588' post='2502782']
One of my big problems with a lot of people on these boards is that they put personal responsibility far and above helping other. That if you don't make enough money, have a good enough job to pay for all possible instances of something happening like a severe health condition or accident, have good enough healthcare, have enough food to feed your children, don't have the ability to send your children to the best private schools, well then to bad. Cause that's your problem and not mine and its more important to me that you not take my money than you getting the help you need. I guess I just don't see where the catholic church teaches that personal responsibility trumps helping others.

Oh and for the record so this does NOT turn political, I am not a democrat or republican or liberal or conservative... i am catholic.
[/quote]


Just wondering, did you poll the people here or is this just an assumption you drew from thin air?


I believe that Jesus wanted everyone to help others through their free will, that is of course a big difference from the government seizing ones money and distributing it as it see's fit. I guess thats what you were referring to?

ed

[Ed Normile]

The largest private charity on the earth is the catholic Church. It distributes more wealth than any other, it helps in every nation regardless of political or religious views. It does not demand contributions or seize them.

Someone here here posted they " demanded justice " in the same post mentioned " redistribution of wealth " what justice is there in taking away the fruits of anothers labors ? My neighbor, an old lady just got a new car bought for her by her son who was left a large inheritance, would I be " just " in assuming that I should have been given a new car too, or would justice dictate that I should have been given the money her son inherited ?

ed

Edited November 5, 2012 by Ed Normile