Somebody Tell Me I'm Wrong

[qfnol31]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1351447452' post='2499169']
I read something that to stay out of poverty the three most important things are to finish school, work full time, and be married before having a baby.
[/quote]I'm missing one of these.

[dUSt]

OK, so jaime, you say a president can't help abortion by policies, and then you make it seem as if a president who talks about and encourages marriage is worthless... so why do you even show up in threads talking about the election at all? Just to have pity on all of us who think that the president of the United States is more than just a symbolic chair?

Your "solution" appears to be this:

1. Do more in your personal life
2. Ignore the election

Are you not taking your own advice? You seem to have a lot of "[color=#282828][font='Open Sans', sans-serif]mispent energy"[/font][/color] in the election threads.

[Winchester]

Maybe because he's hoping people will quit voting for central planning arse portals, because that's what got us the HHS mandate, in the first place.

[To Jesus Through Mary]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1351441100' post='2499095']
I've been feeling frustrated as we get closer to the election. And I've realized that this is a familiar feeling every four years. Here at Phatmass (a place that I like to call home) mostly respectful fights break out amongst the closest of online friends over the issue of pro-life and the election. I've not hidden the fact that I have voted always voted for a pro-life candidate even though, they have always been third party and there are people who are dear to me here that are adamant about the fact that I am going against what is best for the pro-life movement by not voting for the least pro-choice major candidate. They will list all the things that Bush did to promote pro-life and talk about how Romney wants to defund Planned Parenthood.

I thought the source of my frustration had been the sometimes heated discourse between friends. But I realized that's not it at all. That is a distraction from what I think the real issue is. If our goal is to end abortion, we are fooling ourselves if we think our political appointees are going to do that for us. Don't get me wrong, of course we are called to vote for pro-life candidates and in the case of two pro-choice, we are to vote for the lesser of two evils. I will always vote and I will always actively promote voting pro-life.

But here's the thing that I've noticed. We as an online community (as a whole) are MOST passionate about pro-life during the elections. We have the most threads about it, we have more trolls about it, we have more heated debates about the elections. But we don't talk NEARLY enough about the things that we can and should be doing on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis. I know there are several in our community that know what I'm talking about. We have people here who have volunteered at pro-life pregnancy counseling centers and have worked with other groups as well. We have people who participate in the 100 Days for Life every year. But my point is, shouldn't we be talking more about these experiences? Shouldn't these threads have more passion than the debates we have about whether Mitt Romney is 10% pro-life or 90% pro-life? Or whether a third party vote is a wasted one?

I was the executive director of a pro-life crisis pregnancy center. My experience at the center made me realize that fighting to end abortion starts with one woman at a time. It taught me that if you want a woman to respect the life inside her, she must first feel respected. I learned that no woman can raise a child on her own. If she doesn't have a husband, she relies on family. If she has no family, then she must be able to rely on her community. If she doesn't have any of the three, she will have an abortion. Women who are actively making a choice between life and abortion are either misinformed or unsupported. And whoever the president is, will not change those two facts. But we have people here who are changing those conditions for women. And I think those stories need to be shared so that MORE of our phamily can realize that the fight for pro-life does not begin and end with an election. The war continues every day.

I haven't seen one Catholic here advocating for voting for Obama. Yet we have dozens of threads talking about voting pro-life. It seems like a significant amount of mispent energy. And I personally believe that Satan delights in the misuse of the passion. It takes us away from the real war and that allows more death.

Somebody tell me I'm wrong.
[/quote]

Jaimie- I think you are spot on. As you know I am one of those CPC workers. This year I have had the great gift of training new CPC interns. I have learned so much more in the process. I also believe we fight abortion one woman at a time. But abortion isn't even the real problem. It is simple a symptom of the actual problem, which is secularization as a whole and the break down of the family. The breakdown majorly propagated by contraceptives, as you are well aware. Having working in a center, I am sure you are very familiar with what actually drives most of these women to have abortions. Fear and for some selfishness. They are so scared, of being a parent, telling their parents, what others will think, money, housing, job, school, future. etc.

But to your point, where is our day in and day out effort. That is one thing I am constantly trying to encourage others to do. Go pray a rosary at your local abortion mill once a week. Get diapers and take them to your local CPC (ALWAYS NEED DIAPERS- and if you are in NYC I have a special center that needs them!)... start a pro-life club to work at your parish, do 40 Days for Life (if you are in NYC or Albany we really need help!!). All of those things are laudable- but they, in themselves, will do nothing to end abortion. We must begin by our own personal holiness. We must be saints to truly change this world. As I have been training the new counselors I keep telling them, the days we roll into the center relying on ourselves to find the right words is the day we will fall flat on our face. However relying on the Lord is so key (daily Mass and rosary is very highly recommended!) which leave us with that if a woman choose to abort, it is not our fault. And if she parents, then it is not our fault. God is the only one who can fix this mess that we have made. We must be fully cooperating with his grace in order to be able to do our part in ending this audacity in our world today. The great Cardinal O'Conner said "The only way we are going to get rid of this demon [of abortion] is by prayer and fasting."

So as this election comes and goes you and I, and so many other like us, will continue on. Hopefully more will join the fight. Hopefully something in this election will spark them. (It was impart the last election that helped spark my fire) When you hold a woman after she had an abortion and wants he baby or I see a woman's face begin to glow as she see her baby for the first time on a sonogram- that is when the term "pro-life" is no longer a political term.

So here is my far to wordy post. I feel ya. I have no real answers. But keep fighting the good fight.

[Aloysius]

I took it to be more of a criticism that all the energy bursts out during election season but not as much during the rest of the time. Certainly we shouldn't ignore the elections, Jaime was very clear that he promotes voting pro-life and has his own opinions as to how one should go about doing that... but when voting pro life in a particular way becomes synonymous with being pro-life, you have a problem. a pro-life person may choose to vote in any number of different ways for the cause, but the real measure of what they do goes far beyond the button they press every four years, and we should all remember to unite mostly over that, much more than we try to fight to unite ourselves as some sort of monolithic voting block (which is an easily exploitable thing for a movement to do)

[Basilisa Marie]

The point isn't that we should ignore the election. The point is that maybe if we actually cared about ending abortion, we'd tackle problems with solutions that actually work, instead of just talking about it. Because arguing about abortion on Phatmass without also volunteering to help the women faced with this problem is no different from just posting a facebook status in "support" of some cause.

[quote][color=#282828][font='Open Sans', sans-serif]personally I think the biggest enemy of the Pro-life movement is pro-lifers. Too many of us focus on fetus and nothing after. Too many of us want to tell a teenage girl not to have an abortion and still want the right to call her a whore and a deadbeat when she needs help. Too many would rather sit in a room with other pro-life people and do exactly what we are doing on phatmass. Too many of us want to preach to the choir.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font='Open Sans', sans-serif]I think if we talked more about respecting women, supporting them when they have a child, helping them to find a way to a better life, we would have more pro-choice people supporting our efforts. [/font][/color][/quote]

[4588686]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351452890' post='2499185']
OK, so jaime, you say a president can't help abortion by policies, and then you make it seem as if a president who talks about and encourages marriage is worthless... so why do you even show up in threads talking about the election at all? Just to have pity on all of us who think that the president of the United States is more than just a symbolic chair?

Your "solution" appears to be this:

1. Do more in your personal life
2. Ignore the election

Are you not taking your own advice? You seem to have a lot of "[color=#282828][font=Open Sans', sans-serif]mispent energy"[/font][/color] in the election threads.
[/quote]


I don't understand this argument or the logic. The President has very little direct power to impact abortion's legality or encourage people to get married. That doesn't mean the Presidency is an empty chair. The President has a great deal of power in things like our military involvement overseas. Or in deciding to veto proposed legislation.


FYI Obama has also made strong statements about kids growing up without parents. If we really need to keep an 'empty gestures' score.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Hasan

[CatherineM]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1351447790' post='2499170']


I'm sure that's true. It's also true that if you don't drink, you cannot become an alcoholic. If you exercise and eat less, you will likely not become a diabetic. If you don't overspend and stay within your means, you likely won't go bankrupt. And sometimes we need help when we overlook the obvious and make mistakes.
[/quote]

I agree. I think people who talk about saving the unborn but abandon helping once they are born have missed an important part of the "from conception to natural death" thing.

[To Jesus Through Mary]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1351454144' post='2499204']
I agree. I think people who talk about saving the unborn but abandon helping once they are born have missed an important part of the "from conception to natural death" thing.
[/quote]


Where are the CPCs y'all are talking about that abandon the woman once they have the baby? I mean all of the pro-life centers I know work with the women well after they give birth and maintain relationships throughout the years. The goal is always to help the woman stand on her own two feet, but none that don't help after the baby is home.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='To Jesus Through Mary' timestamp='1351454391' post='2499206']



Where are the CPCs y'all are talking about that abandon the woman once they have the baby? I mean all of the pro-life centers I know work with the women well after they give birth and maintain relationships throughout the years. The goal is always to help the woman stand on her own two feet, but none that don't help after the baby is home.
[/quote]

I was talking about politicians.

[Ed Normile]

I would say your wrong Jaime. First and foremost a vote wasted on a 3rd party candidate for idealistic views or a wishy-washy attitude allows Obama the chance to appoint 2 more Supreme Court justices, think of where the balance of power will be on the Court then. Voting for a 3rd party candidate with no chance to win may seem like a wonderful statement allowing one to feel as if they did some magnimonious gesture to affect the future but in reality they never pay attention to losers or who votes for them, do you think Ross Perot or his voters did any thing to better the political process. And trust me the left will vote for Obama enmasse no matter what he does or says.

ed

[Jaime]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1351459660' post='2499224']
I would say your wrong Jaime. First and foremost a vote wasted on a 3rd party candidate for idealistic views or a wishy-washy attitude allows Obama the chance to appoint 2 more Supreme Court justices, think of where the balance of power will be on the Court then. Voting for a 3rd party candidate with no chance to win may seem like a wonderful statement allowing one to feel as if they did some magnimonious gesture to affect the future but in reality they never pay attention to losers or who votes for them, do you think Ross Perot or his voters did any thing to better the political process. And trust me the left will vote for Obama enmasse no matter what he does or says.

ed
[/quote]


Well first of all Ed, I'm thoroughly not impressed with your reading skills. You took one line out of what was entirely too long OP and ignored everything else


Secondly, And I'll keep this brief since you just seem to skim for what appeals to you,


Abraham Lincoln

[Jaime]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351452890' post='2499185']
OK, so jaime, you say a president can't help abortion by policies, and then you make it seem as if a president who talks about and encourages marriage is worthless... so why do you even show up in threads talking about the election at all? Just to have pity on all of us who think that the president of the United States is more than just a symbolic chair?

Your "solution" appears to be this:

1. Do more in your personal life
2. Ignore the election

Are you not taking your own advice? You seem to have a lot of "[color=#282828][font=Open Sans', sans-serif]mispent energy"[/font][/color] in the election threads.
[/quote]

I think you must be having a bad day. Your ability to read and interpret is better than this. I'd comment more but you don't seem to be taking my post or me too seriously.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1351445139' post='2499139']
Your mom is wordy.


And I don't think you're wrong. Abortion is not a good thing. If there were no more need for it then I'd be perfectly happy.
[/quote]
There's never a "need" to kill a child.

There will always be circumstances in which killing an unborn child is the convenient or easy option.

No matter how many leftists are elected to office.

[LinaSt.Cecilia2772]

Jaime, I agree with you. I've been giving this a lot of thought, and I applaud you for bringing this to the table because to be quite frank I'm tired of all the things you and I see on PM too about this issue.

It seems to me, from what I've read, that people see this as black and white and they don't see the grey in between.