dUSt Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1351444683' post='2499131'] I question what you are willing to settle for. You are making an argument that real life and Catholic life are incompatible. Plus tell me one Catholic on this board who has stated that Obama will have his/her vote? Because I haven't seen anybody with a militant tag talk about how amesome our current president is. [/quote] My thought is this. Vote for actual results. Campaign for a better option. I do not believe voting third party has any affect whatsoever on determining the choices for the next race. I do not believe refusing to vote has any affect whatsoever on determining the choices for the next race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1351444819' post='2499134'] And it is equally spurious to caricature us as ignoring Church teaching [/quote] And it is equally spurious to accuse me of caricaturing you as ignoring Church teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1351443372' post='2499118'] You know that Ron Paul was a racist because one of his supporters put a couple of racist jokes in a blog? [/quote] No. His newspaper published a numbers of disgustingly racist articles. But go ahead. Believe that he was just totally unaware of what was going on. It's not like he has a reason to lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351445196' post='2499141'] so I'm not ignoring Church teaching but I'm "refraining from getting into actual Church teaching"? what's the difference? [/quote] Ignoring church teaching is when you do not pay attention to it. Refraining from getting into actual church teaching is when you make a whole lot of points and express a lot of opinions but you don't tell us how it corresponds to what the church teaches on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351445336' post='2499143'] My thought is this. Vote for actual results. Campaign for a better option. I do not believe voting third party has any affect whatsoever on determining the choices for the next race. I do not believe refusing to vote has any affect whatsoever on determining the choices for the next race. [/quote] But who here that has declared they are Catholic, has also said they will vote for Obama? No one that I've seen. But we have sixteen threads going on about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Here's the thing. All of your arguments just sound like a bunch of complaining without proposing any solutions. None of you have convinced me that refusing to vote or voting third party will have any affect on anything. Sure, "if every Catholic voted this way" sounds amazing, but it's a pipe dream. I'm a husband. I'm a father. I live a realistic life in a realistic world. I do not teach my kids to accomplish goals by hope. I teach my kids how to accomplish real things with real results. I just don't get it. I really don't. I've always thought I was a pretty rational guy. I'm losing friends left and right. Most of my family hates being around me. The end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 sigh.... please don't let this turn into a Ron Paul racist newsletter argument, that's such a Rabbit Hole. Ron Paul's consistent statements both before and after those racist statements were written in his newsletter have been completely contradictory towards such ideas as he has consistently called any race-based reasoning "collectivist"; the racist stuff happened in a short time frame, is written in a tone of voice completely different than Ron Paul's writing and speaking styles, and certain real investigative journalists have actually uncovered who they believe to be the real person to have written them; but ALL of that aside, Dr. Paul is not running for president anymore; while he was running for president and while he was in congress he was a consistent opponent of anything racist, we should let the man retire in peace and not let the aberration of particular newsletters in the early 90's color his legacy. If he was at fault for allowing those letters to go out once upon a time, that's between him and his own conscience; I do not believe that he was, but again--he's not running for office anymore, and he's not supporting any racist ideologies, so leaving his legacy in peace (since there is no direct proof of him ever espousing racist ideas) would be the most charitable thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 I've offered means of opposition. They're not the fairytale magic bullet of voting for Romney. This will be a long term battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1351445673' post='2499149'] But who here that has declared they are Catholic, has also said they will vote for Obama? No one that I've seen. But we have sixteen threads going on about this. [/quote] You are smart when you choose to be. I never said anyone was voting for Obama. If you are not in a swing state, who cares who you vote for. If you are in a swing state, you should vote against Obama being re-elected, which means, to have any real affect, you must vote for Romney. The "Romney is the same as Obama" argument is ludicrous, and not the rapper kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351445934' post='2499151'] Here's the thing. All of your arguments just sound like a bunch of complaining without proposing any solutions. None of you have convinced me that refusing to vote or voting third party will have any affect on anything. Sure, "if every Catholic voted this way" sounds amazing, but it's a pipe dream. I'm a husband. I'm a father. I live a realistic life in a realistic world. I do not teach my kids to accomplish goals by hope. I teach my kids how to accomplish real things with real results. I just don't get it. I really don't. I've always thought I was a pretty rational guy. I'm losing friends left and right. Most of my family hates being around me. The end. [/quote] my proposed solutions http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/124888-somebody-tell-me-im-wrong/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351445934' post='2499151'] Here's the thing. All of your arguments just sound like a bunch of complaining without proposing any solutions. None of you have convinced me that refusing to vote or voting third party will have any affect on anything. Sure, "if every Catholic voted this way" sounds amazing, but it's a pipe dream. I'm a husband. I'm a father. I live a realistic life in a realistic world. I do not teach my kids to accomplish goals by hope. I teach my kids how to accomplish real things with real results. I just don't get it. I really don't. I've always thought I was a pretty rational guy. I'm losing friends left and right. Most of my family hates being around me. The end. [/quote] why are you losing friends left and right? surely no one is stupid enough to allow political arguments to end friendships? (sadly I realize that people are stupid enough to do that, but it's shockingly sad nonetheless)... at the end of the day people need to agree to disagree on politics and continue to live their lives as friends and family; if you've exhausted the discussions and both sides disagree, just don't bring it up anymore and keep being friends and family--that is far more important than silly political squabbles. as to what affect it will have--I've conceded a loss in this election for POTUS this cycle. to me, the election is already over--two extremely pro-choice candidates neither of whom I have any preference towards over the other are now the two most likely presidents. I have voted my conscience in the general election and I think everyone else should do the same; sure it's a pipe dream to imagine that everyone will do that and we will win this election, we've already lost this election IMO.[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1351446302' post='2499159'] my proposed solutions [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/124888-somebody-tell-me-im-wrong/"]http://www.phatmass....ll-me-im-wrong/[/url] [/quote] THIS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='MeteorShower' timestamp='1351437869' post='2499081'] Oh, I do apologize. I was mistaken. I don't know much about American politics. I also hope that you did not misunderstand me. I am not of the opinion that choosing not to vote for Romney is wrong. Although I, admittedly, would prefer him to Obama, I don't consider him pro-life, so I understand why many of you would not want to vote for him. I am very sorry if I upset anyone. I was trying to defend a friend, but in no way was I trying to imply that any of you are wrong or that I consider you less of a Catholic in regards to your opinions on voting/not voting. If any of you got that impression from anything that I have said, I am truly sorry and I ask your forgiveness. [/quote] You are being attacked because you are telling the truth. Jesus was also for the same thing. Hold on tight friend. No need to apologize to anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351446446' post='2499161'] to me, the election is already over--two extremely pro-choice candidates neither of whom I have any preference towards over the other are now the two most likely presidents. [/quote] Why did the National Right to Life Committee endorse Romney? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Why did Abolish Human Abortion refuse to endorse Romney? Honestly, Romney's gone back and forth on the life issues so often, I think everything hinges on your interpretation of one particular event during his candidacy. Everything rises and falls for the life issue based on how you take Romney's statement including the "health-of-the-mother" exemption, which his spokesperson quickly denied. If you believe his spokesperson that he did not intend to include that exemption and that he would not advocate for anything including that exemption, then you can view him as a step in the right direction from Obama. If you do not believe his spokesperson, and I have pointed to his record as an indication that we should actually be inclined to believe he does want a health-of-the-mother exemption, then ALL of the pro-life endorsements are for naught. Because every single pro-life endorsement hinges on the belief that he didn't actually intend to say health-of-the-mother. "If that were his position, he would never have received our endorsement, that’s for sure" -Marjorie Dannenfelser, president of the Susan B. Anthony List http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/romney-im-in-favor-of-legal-abortion-for-health-and-life-of-mother-rape-inc http://www.lifenews.com/2012/08/31/romney-opposes-pro-abortion-health-of-the-mother-exception/ That's what it all comes down to. Pro life groups would NOT endorse the man if they believed he was in favor of the pro-abortion "health-of-the-mother" exemption. So whether you believe his spokesperson or you believe his statement was consistent with his decades-long positions on the subject is the question here. There's a million other examples to paint a picture of the Romney position one way or another, but I believe this one example encapsulates the entire controversy, the entire question of the Romney position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern california guy Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 (edited) [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1351444861' post='2499136'] Romney is a lot of things but a tax cheat is not one of them. To my knowledge, there have been no reports of tax fraud. In addition, the guy tithes better than 95% of Catholics in this country. I may not agree with his choice of charities, but the fact that he donates so much adds to the argument for his integrity. [/quote] Let's say hypothetically... that he isn't really contributing as much as he claims to the LDS church....Or possibly that he gets a certain percentage of that money back...? Isn't that a great way to dodge taxes?!!! And let's consider that the LDS church really wants him to win. And maybe they are claiming that he is contributing more than he is? Hmmm.... Now I am not implying that a church with such great moral virtue would do such a thing.. God forbid. I would never imply such a thing! But if we consider that perhaps he really contributes that much money to the LDS church -- then he is a [b]VERY[/b] loyal Mormon. I don't know what that has to do with "integrity" -- unless loyalty and support for ones religion is the same thing as honesty and integrity. But if he really contributes that much money to his religion than I think that we can make a safe bet that the views of his religion -- the Church of Jesus Christ of the later day saints -- the ones that I've been talking about, are his views. Edited October 28, 2012 by southern california guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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