Who Is The Real Pro-choice?

[dUSt]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1351441194' post='2499097']
Thanks for calling me stupid
[/quote]
You jumped to that conclusion yourself, but my mamma always told me, "stupid is what stupid types".

[dUSt]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351441384' post='2499098']
I'm NOT defending Obama's vile positions.
I am no fan of Obama, please don't paint me as such.
[/quote]
Perception becomes reality, and unfortunately, to the common reader, you come off as defending Obama. I know you so I know that is not your intent. I'm just pointing out that it may be perceived that way.

The same goes for all of you in the anti-Romney camp.

Romney is endorsed by the National Right to Life Committee. By equalizing Romney and Obama all of you are coming off as pro-Obama, whether you like it or not.

Sure, go ahead and tell me that's not what you are doing. List all of your philosophical arguments. Talk to me about ideals and what-ifs. Keep refraining from getting into actual church teaching. It doesn't matter. To most people reading these threads, the perception is that you are pro-Obama. Period. Blame the reader for being ignorant I guess. Argue all you want. You are pro-Obama. That is the perception. Fair or not. Just be aware of this.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351439907' post='2499088']
OK, well now you just made me think you are not smart.

Bush has a long list of pro-life things he did as president. Obama has a long list of pro-abortion things.

So if Romney is not a pro-life candidate just like Bush wasn't, then I will gladly vote for the pro-choice candidate who has a long list of pro-life accomplishments rather than the pro-choice candidate who has a long list of pro-abortion accomplishments.

You guys are getting way too caught up in things that defy reality. So much so, I think it is truly clouding your judgement on how to best save the lives of unborn kids.
[/quote]

Yeah, and the Catholics are very strongly anti-divorce! You know that an annulment is exactly the same thing as never having gotten married!

Bush and Romney are not all that similar. Bush's viewpoint on abortion is the Christian one. Whether he voted and did the right thing was a matter of his own strength and weakness. The Mormons have a different position that can not be considered prolife.

How about a late term abortion? The Mormons would be asking the question "Is it because of rape, incest, threat to the mothers mental health, or threat to the mothers life?" They would not be concerning themselves with the baby.

Do they think that it should be legal? Yes! If the woman is the victim of rape, incest, there is a threat to her "health", or a threat to her life than abortion needs to be safe and legal.

Do they think that it should be federally funded? Yes! If the woman is a victim of rape, incest, etc.. and she can't afford to get an abortion -- than it should be federally funded so that she can get the abortion that she needs.

Do they believe in the morning after pill? No. They feel that could be too easily abused.


It seems to me that the "pro-lifers" are moving in the pro-choice direction in much the same manner as the Catholic church moved in the direction of approving divorces and remarriage -- by broadening the criteria for annulments.

Pro-lifers are now supporting abortions in cases of rape, incest, threat to a mothers mental health, or threat to the mothers life.

I think that the pro-life movement is dying. Abortion now has the approval of the Republicans and Christians and former pro-lifers. The pro-choicers have won.

[dUSt]

Well at least y'all have southern california guy on your side.

[Jaime]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351441390' post='2499099']
You jumped to that conclusion yourself, but my mamma always told me, "stupid is what stupid types".
[/quote]
Just because you have a different opinion, I wouldn't suggest you are not smart. But because you don't agree with my opinion, that's what you say about me.

We have 77 million Catholics who are registered voters here in the US. Obama won with 66 million. You may think I'm not smart, but my math tells me that if all the registered Catholic voters had voted for a pro-life candidate, even a third party, they might have won

[southern california guy]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351442167' post='2499107']
Well at least y'all have southern california guy on your side.
[/quote]

You know that Ron Paul was a racist because one of his supporters put a couple of racist jokes in a blog? So people had to vote for Romney instead!

Of course the Book of Mormon teaches that Leman's descendants were punished for Leman's transgressions -- by having dark skin. And Nephi's descendants were blessed with light skin........


You've got to hand it to the Mormons. They got Ron Paul when they dredged the racist connection up.

The Pro-lifers are wrong because they've got me on their side? Maybe the Romney supporters are wrong because Romney is a Mormon -- and they've got the LDS religions connection on the side of Romney. Maybe we should look at what Romney believes rather than solely considering how much money he has or how smartly the Mormons dress.

Edited October 28, 2012 by southern california guy

[Jaime]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1351443372' post='2499118']
You know that Ron Paul was a racist because one of his supporters put a couple of racist jokes in a blog? So people had to vote for Romney instead!

Of course the Book of Mormon teaches that Leman's descendants were punished for Leman's transgressions -- by having dark skin. And Nephi's descendants were blessed with light skin........
[/quote]


I have no idea why you are so focused on his mormonism. Out of all the things to concerned about with Romney, this seems like the most trivial.

[Aloysius]

how am I ignoring Church teaching? are you freaking kidding me? Church teaching allows for voting for the lesser of two evils to limit evil, but NEVER REQUIRES it.

It doesn't matter to me if people think criticizing Romney is equivalent to defending Obama. I will continue to criticize both of them because I have no preference. Many people will come away from reading what I have had to say thinking Romney's still better; I'm sure some people might misinterpret me and think Obama is better; personally, I don't care so much whether they support Romney or Obama because I'm equally opposed to both of them. Romney represents the co-option of the pro-life movement into 99% pro-choice positions; Obama represents the rhetorically explicit pro-choice movement. Either side wins, the pro-life movement loses.

But whatever you think people are perceiving by my comments, you should responsibly deal with my position as I have presented it. I am not an Obama supporter. To paint me as such is a petty political tactic that you are employing, and then you're basically justifying it by citing the fact that everyone employs that same petty political tactic (that criticizing/not falling into lockstep with one side is equivalent to supporting the other side)

[dUSt]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1351442467' post='2499110']
You may think I'm not smart, but my math tells me that if all the registered Catholic voters had voted for a pro-life candidate, even a third party, they might have won
[/quote]
I do not question your math, I question your grasp of reality.

You cannot get [b]all[/b] of Catholics to do something, but it is in the realm of possibility to get 10% more of them to vote for the pro-choice candidate who will accomplish more pro-life things than pro-choice candidate who will not accomplish one pro-life thing.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351443821' post='2499121']
how am I ignoring Church teaching? are you freaking kidding me? Church teaching allows for voting for the lesser of two evils to limit evil, but NEVER REQUIRES it.

It doesn't matter to me if people think criticizing Romney is equivalent to defending Obama. I will continue to criticize both of them because I have no preference. Many people will come away from reading what I have had to say thinking Romney's still better; I'm sure some people might misinterpret me and think Obama is better; personally, I don't care so much whether they support Romney or Obama because I'm equally opposed to both of them. Romney represents the co-option of the pro-life movement into 99% pro-choice positions; Obama represents the rhetorically explicit pro-choice movement. Either side wins, the pro-life movement loses.

But whatever you think people are perceiving by my comments, you should responsibly deal with my position as I have presented it. I am not an Obama supporter. To paint me as such is a petty political tactic that you are employing, and then you're basically justifying it by citing the fact that everyone employs that same petty political tactic (that criticizing/not falling into lockstep with one side is equivalent to supporting the other side)
[/quote]
Didn't say you were ignoring church teaching.

I'm not painting you as anything.

You are doing all the painting, and unfortunately, it looks like a Picasso in his cubism period. Fellow artists might "get it", but to the average person, it just looks like a bunch of confusing mess.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1351443727' post='2499120']
I have no idea why you are so focused on his mormonism. Out of all the things to concerned about with Romney, this seems like the most trivial.
[/quote]

Romney is a Mormon. These are Romney's beliefs. They would like to believe that their descendants were one of the lost tribes of Israel. They are big supporters of Israel. They are big supporters of our military. They are big supporters of waging war against Iran, Lebanon, and other Middle Eastern countries that they view as a threat to Israel.

Romney is not just a Mormon, he is rich. He was born to an affluent family. The significance of his tax returns is that he breaks rules when he can get away with it. He is ambitious. Remember George W Bush who looked the other way when the Banks were doing slightly improper things in financing people who could not make the payments on the houses that they were buying? Remember how George W Bush bailed out the banks when their corruption caught up with them? Remember how George W Bush argued that we did not have to follow the Geneva Treaty rules when it came to taking and handling prisoners? And remember how he supported the punishment of the American soldiers who had carried out his orders? And remember how our economy almost collapsed as a result of all of this corruption (Mainly because of the banks)?

We need to consider who Romney is. Even what his Mormon beliefs are. I think that you can better understand him if you better understand Mormonism.

Edited October 28, 2012 by southern california guy

[Jaime]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351444200' post='2499127']
I do not question your math, I question your grasp of reality.

You cannot get [b]all[/b] of Catholics to do something, but it is in the realm of possibility to get 10% more of them to vote for the pro-choice candidate who will accomplish more pro-life things than pro-choice Obama, who will not do one pro-life thing.
[/quote]


I question what you are willing to settle for. You are making an argument that real life and Catholic life are incompatible. Plus tell me one Catholic on this board who has stated that Obama will have his/her vote? Because I haven't seen anybody with a militant tag talk about how amesome our current president is.

[Nihil Obstat]

I do not think any person who is both intelligent and intellectually honest can possibly come away from these debates thinking Al and Jaime and E_E and myself and whoever else are all big Obama fans. I think we are quite explicit in pointing out how both candidates are scum.

And it is equally spurious to caricature us as ignoring Church teaching, when the basis of our opposition here is a [u][i]refusal to compromise[/i][/u] on faith and morals.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Nihil Obstat

[Jaime]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1351444561' post='2499130']
Romney is a Mormon. These are Romney's beliefs. They would like to believe that their descendants were one of the lost tribes of Israel. They are big supporters of Israel. They are big supporters of our military. They are big supporters of waging war against Iran, Lebanon, and other Middle Eastern countries that they view as a threat to Israel.

Romney is not just a Mormon, he is rich. He was born to an affluent family. The significance of his tax returns is that he breaks rules when he can get away with it. He is ambitious. Remember George W Bush who looked the other way when the Banks were doing slightly improper things in financing people who could not make the payments on the houses that they were buying? Remember how George W Bush bailed out the banks when their corruption caught up with them? Remember how George W Bush argued that we did not have to follow the Geneva Treaty rules when it came to taking and handling prisoners? And remember how he supported the punishment of the American soldiers who had carried out his orders? And remember how our economy almost collapsed as a result of all of this corruption (Mainly because of the banks)?

We need to consider who Romney is. Even what his Mormon beliefs are. I think that you can better understand him if you better understand Mormonism.
[/quote]

Romney is a lot of things but a tax cheat is not one of them. To my knowledge, there have been no reports of tax fraud. In addition, the guy tithes better than 95% of Catholics in this country. I may not agree with his choice of charities, but the fact that he donates so much adds to the argument for his integrity.

[Aloysius]

so I'm not ignoring Church teaching but I'm "refraining from getting into actual Church teaching"? what's the difference?

it's quite a simple picture I've painted: I don't like either Romney or Obama--they both smell of elderberries as candidates and I don't have a preference for either of them winning, and would prefer that they both lose (even though that's not likely to happen). Anyone who has difficulty understanding that a criticism of Romney is just that--a criticism of Romney, and not an expression of support for Obama has fallen for the media brainwashing party-lockstep mentality. Sure, they're out there; but as lovers of truth and reason our job should be to attempt to wake them up.

Anyway, in real life I've diverted quite a few Obama votes towards Gary Johnson, even turned a few on to Jill Stein who I don't like but I realized would fit their lines of thinking better, and some towards write-ins, so if I step onto Phatmass and argue people who might otherwise reluctantly press the button for Romney it's not exactly a partisan move... I'm focusing on criticizing Romney here because very few if any people here are in favor of Obama; since I'm an enemy to both candidates I am fully in favor of diverting votes away from either one of them.

Anyway, I guess it's true what they say; no one can tell you what the matrix is, you have to see it for yourself.

oh, and Romney's not really a mormon, he's a secret scientologist who's actually a secret Catholic who's actually a secret Buddhist.
and everyone thinks Obama's a secret Muslim but he's actually a secret Muslim who's a secret Baptist who's a secret Hindu who's a secret Hasan worshipper.

the religion argument is just as much a diversion as many other arguments, I don't think anyone should refuse to vote for Romney on the basis of his religion.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Aloysius