dUSt Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1351393660' post='2498933'] Voting for someone because they like "less" murder does not make them pro-life. If you are for any type of abortion, you are pro-choice. there are degrees of pro-choice but not of pro-life. You are either pro-life or not [/quote] I know it is not your intent to mislead people into thinking that voting for a 10% pro-choice person is the same thing as voting for a 100% pro-choice person, but that is how you are coming across. And that is in direct contradiction to what the church teaches us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1351407740' post='2499015'] Maybe it's your delivery [/quote] Probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351410097' post='2499022'] I know it is not your intent to mislead people into thinking that voting for a 10% pro-choice person is the same thing as voting for a 100% pro-choice person, but that is how you are coming across. And that is in direct contradiction to what the church teaches us. [/quote] Where does this 10% number come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeteorShower Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 (edited) Guys, there's no need to be so harsh. You're all going on at Freedom, saying "voting doesn't make you pro-life" and "Romney isn't going to save more lives." Firstly, Freedom never said "I'm so pro-life because I think we should all vote Romeny," so stop acting like she said that. None of you know what she does with her time. Now I don't know much about American politics, and I understand that it's not really my place to give an opinion, but quite frankly I don't see why some people think Romeny and Obama are on the same level. Unfortunately, Romeny is not the heaven-sent potential president that we all want. He is pro-choice, that's a fact. For one thing, however, I doubt he's going to be lobbying to have partial birth abortion legalized. I'm pretty sure that the republicans have made it clear that they would support some restrictions on abortions. Edited October 28, 2012 by MeteorShower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeteorShower Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 I'm sorry if that came across harsher than intended :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatitude Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='MeteorShower' timestamp='1351423581' post='2499043'] Firstly, Freedom never said "I'm so pro-life because I think we should all vote Romeny," so stop acting like she said that. None of you know what she does with her time. [/quote] We know that she has used her time to make about fifty thousand repetitive posts on Phatmass urging people to vote for Romney, many of which accuse other posters of not being true Catholics. On one occasion she has said that perhaps we need to go and find an atheist forum to join. The sheer volume of posts (and their tone) has not won her many fans. It feels as though she thinks she can persuade everyone to agree with her if only she bludgeons them hard enough: "Another two hundred threads should do it!" I'm not American either, but if I were I wouldn't be voting for either Obama or Romney, and I resent the suggestion that I must be a deficient Catholic for refusing to throw my weight behind someone who is so visibly greedy for power that he changes his ideas to suit those of his audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Meteor, Obama has not lobbied for partial birth abortion to be legal as president either. I have made my case several times that Romney is not some kind of 10% pro-choice person, that he is more like 99% pro-choice and does not represent a limit to abortion. Indeed, the Church does teach that one MAY choose to vote for a 10% pro-choice person over a 100% pro-choice person (but not that they MUST) in order to limit the evil, however that is not the case here IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351410097' post='2499022'] I know it is not your intent to mislead people into thinking that voting for a 10% pro-choice person is the same thing as voting for a 100% pro-choice person, but that is how you are coming across. And that is in direct contradiction to what the church teaches us. [/quote] I'm not trying to mislead anyone. Nobody is going to hell for voting for Romney. But we need to be clear. Romney is in no way a pro-life candidate. Bush wasn't a pro-life candidate. Both are pro-choice. In my opinion, if Catholics truly voted for a pro-life candidate, the rest of the country would notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeteorShower Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351431412' post='2499055'] Meteor, Obama has not lobbied for partial birth abortion to be legal as president either. I have made my case several times that Romney is not some kind of 10% pro-choice person, that he is more like 99% pro-choice and does not represent a limit to abortion. Indeed, the Church does teach that one MAY choose to vote for a 10% pro-choice person over a 100% pro-choice person (but not that they MUST) in order to limit the evil, however that is not the case here IMHO. [/quote] Oh, I do apologize. I was mistaken. I don't know much about American politics. I also hope that you did not misunderstand me. I am not of the opinion that choosing not to vote for Romney is wrong. Although I, admittedly, would prefer him to Obama, I don't consider him pro-life, so I understand why many of you would not want to vote for him. I am very sorry if I upset anyone. I was trying to defend a friend, but in no way was I trying to imply that any of you are wrong or that I consider you less of a Catholic in regards to your opinions on voting/not voting. If any of you got that impression from anything that I have said, I am truly sorry and I ask your forgiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeteorShower Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351431412' post='2499055'] Meteor, Obama has not lobbied for partial birth abortion to be legal as president either. I have made my case several times that Romney is not some kind of 10% pro-choice person, that he is more like 99% pro-choice and does not represent a limit to abortion. Indeed, the Church does teach that one MAY choose to vote for a 10% pro-choice person over a 100% pro-choice person (but not that they MUST) in order to limit the evil, however that is not the case here IMHO. [/quote] Oh, I do apologize. I was mistaken. I don't know much about American politics. I also hope that you did not misunderstand me. I am not of the opinion that choosing not to vote for Romney is wrong. Although I, admittedly, would prefer him to Obama, I don't consider him pro-life, so I understand why many of you would not want to vote for him. I am very sorry if I upset anyone. I was trying to defend a friend, but in no way was I trying to imply that any of you are wrong or that I consider you less of a Catholic in regards to your opinions on voting/not voting. If any of you got that impression from anything that I have said, I am truly sorry and I ask your forgiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 you didn't upset me, I was just addressing your point about partial birth abortion limits, no worries. Obama has had vile opinions on things like partial birth abortion in the past, but I wanted to clarify that he has not done so as president and that this legislation is currently completely safe no matter which side wins. no worries, though, your input is welcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1351433569' post='2499065'] I'm not trying to mislead anyone. Nobody is going to hell for voting for Romney. But we need to be clear. Romney is in no way a pro-life candidate. Bush wasn't a pro-life candidate. Both are pro-choice. [/quote] OK, well now you just made me think you are not smart. Bush has a long list of pro-life things he did as president. Obama has a long list of pro-abortion things. So if Romney is not a pro-life candidate just like Bush wasn't, then I will gladly vote for the pro-choice candidate who has a long list of pro-life accomplishments rather than the pro-choice candidate who has a long list of pro-abortion accomplishments. You guys are getting way too caught up in things that defy reality. So much so, I think it is truly clouding your judgement on how to best save the lives of unborn kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351439619' post='2499086'] Obama has had vile opinions on things like partial birth abortion in the past, but I wanted to clarify that he has not done so as president [/quote] Seems to be a double standard if you defend Obama's past opinions but then turn around a fault Romney for his past opinions. I'm not sayin' I'm just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351439907' post='2499088'] OK, well now you just made me think you are not smart. Bush has a long list of pro-life things he did as president. Obama has a long list of pro-abortion things. So if Romney is not a pro-life candidate just like Bush wasn't, then I will gladly vote for the pro-choice candidate who has a long list of pro-life accomplishments rather than the pro-choice candidate who has a long list of pro-abortion accomplishments. You guys are getting way too caught up in things that defy reality. So much so, I think it is truly clouding your judgement on how to best save the lives of unborn kids. [/quote] Thanks for calling me stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Bush was certainly much less pro-choice than Romney or Obama, that's pretty indisputable. The single greatest success of the Bush years was the partial birth abortion ban, which was able to be done in a bipartisan way thank God. Most everything else during Bush's term included crumbs and symbolic gestures. The rate of abortions has remained relatively steady, changes in it being statistically insignificant, since 1998 at least, though, so the talk of who "saves more babies" by these laws is, well, just hype. We might as well shift our focus to banning gender-selective abortion or something, and continue to do completely ineffectual things. Worst thing under Obama is Obama-care, modeled after Romney-care which was [i]just as bad[/i] for life issues. I have illustrated why I believe Romney will leave Obama-care largely in place with modifications that do not make it any better on life issues. This is not defying reality; I've based it on Romney's record, and his statements including statements made during this very election cycle. Don't say I'm defying reality, or clouding my judgment and failing to save babies' lives. Please, give me a single credible or plausible way in which a mother who wanted to abort under the Obama administration would be less able or likely to abort under a Romney administration. I can think of none, so your accusation that I'm failing to protect unborn babies is completely ludicrous. [quote]Seems to be a double standard if you defend Obama's past opinions but then turn around a fault Romney for his past opinions. I'm not sayin' I'm just sayin'.[/quote] I'm NOT defending Obama's vile positions. What I am saying is that the partial birth abortion ban is not under any threat from Obama, he's not lobbying to get rid of it or doing anything about it; neither side has any intention of touching it. Romney, on the other hand, has past positions relevant to the things that will be going on during his administration, and they carry over into his current statements. I am no fan of Obama, please don't paint me as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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