Will You Anti-romney People Apologize?

[kujo]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351639004' post='2500605']
For me, it is the only moral choice. I do not understand nor wish to understand how other people form their consciences. Too much thinking. No time. Must catch up on TV shows.
[/quote]

You should write apologetics

[Aloysius]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351639004' post='2500605']
For me, it is the only moral choice. I do not understand nor wish to understand how other people form their consciences. Too much thinking. No time. Must catch up on TV shows.
[/quote]
then you should probably refrain from stating your opinion on a Catholic debate board. it is actually dangerous to the salvation of souls, my friend.

if you were willing to think about the issue to the point of determining what the moral choice is and simply came to a different conclusion, that would be one thing. but if you are seriously unwilling to think about what the possible moral choices are then you have absolutely no business standing up in the public square on this website and indicating to fellow Catholics that your choice is the only moral choice from a Catholic perspective.

people do this so often with the idea that all they're doing is pressuring fellow Catholics who have come to different political conclusions to come on over to their own political conclusion, but what they fail to realize is that to a certain degree they may be pressuring fellow Catholics who have come to different conclusions on the basis of their conscience to reason that they're just not good Catholics and they must choose between their conscience/reason/stupid political ideology and their Catholic Faith, a choice that they shouldn't have to make. this is the absolute EVIL and POISON that is contained in the conflation of political ideology with Catholic identity. I'm not necessarily talking about people participating in these threads who already have strong opinions and strong Catholic faiths, but the lurking audiences of these debates.

Worst case scenario of the things I say is that people vote for a stupid candidate like Obama.
Worst case scenario of the things you say is that people think that holding to the political opinions they hold is somehow contrary to Catholic morality and therefore they must choose between their political opinions/reason/conscience and being Catholic, as if Catholicism were somehow synonymous with political voting blocks rather than mystical sacramental realities.

I'm far more interested in the salvation of souls than whether Romney wins this election. I don't think you realize how dangerous and, I dare say sacrilegious, it is when people conflate the vote for Romney as the [b]only moral Catholic vote[/b]. .

Edited October 31, 2012 by Aloysius

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351639004' post='2500605']
[b]For me[/b], it is the only moral choice. I do not understand nor wish to understand how other people form their consciences. Too much thinking. No time. Must catch up on TV shows.
[/quote]

Look, I have absolutely no problem with Romney being the only moral position [i][b]for you. [/b][/i]You can even argue that it's the BEST choice. But objectively speaking, there are a couple of different ways a Catholic can morally vote. Go ahead and imply that I have a malformed conscience. I'll just go ahead and imply that you're causing scandal.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351643770' post='2500683']I'm far more interested in the salvation of souls than whether Romney wins this election. I don't think you realize how dangerous and, I dare say sacrilegious, it is when people conflate the vote for Romney as the [b]only moral Catholic vote[/b]. .
[/quote]
To be fair, there is a legitimate argument to be made that he is in fact the only moral Catholic vote, just as I'm sure there's a legitimate argument to be made that he is not a moral Catholic vote at all.

Just as long as no one tries to argue that Obama is the only legitimate vote from a Catholic point of view I'm happy.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1351644134' post='2500691']
To be fair, there is a legitimate argument to be made that he is in fact the only moral Catholic vote, just as I'm sure there's a legitimate argument to be made that he is not a moral Catholic vote at all.

Just as long as no one tries to argue that Obama is the only legitimate vote from a Catholic point of view I'm happy.
[/quote]

Actually, there's a legitimate argument to be made that Romney is the MOST moral Catholic vote. But not the only. Never the only.

Lol, I don't think anyone on this forum would dare to try and say that Obama is a legitimate Catholic vote.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1351644266' post='2500695']

Actually, there's a legitimate argument to be made that Romney is the MOST moral Catholic vote. But not the only. Never the only.

Lol, I don't think anyone on this forum would dare to try and say that Obama is a legitimate Catholic vote.
[/quote]
Okay, substitute in most and you might get why I'd say only, but yes, most is better.

[Aloysius]

Exactly, Basilisa, the idea that he is the ONLY moral Catholic vote implies that any Catholic who doesn't vote for Romney has sinned against Catholicism. To argue that is a sin against the unity of the Church by imposing obligations to be a Catholic in good standing that simply do not exist. To argue that he is the MOST moral Catholic vote is a legitimate argument that one can make (one should only make it if one is willing to THINK about the various options, I should add), but too many people go way beyond that and I am way more concerned with their sins against the unity of the mysical body of Christ, the means of salvation on earth, than I am about the outcome of any particular election.

[dUSt]

[quote][color=#282828][font='Open Sans', sans-serif]they must choose between their conscience/reason/stupid political ideology and their Catholic Faith, a choice that they shouldn't have to make. [/quote][/font][/color]
[color=#282828][font='Open Sans', sans-serif]If their stupid political ideology is in contradiction to their Catholic faith I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect them to have to choose between the two.[/font][/color]

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351644506' post='2500700']
Exactly, Basilisa, the idea that he is the ONLY moral Catholic vote implies that any Catholic who doesn't vote for Romney has sinned against Catholicism. To argue that is a sin against the unity of the Church by imposing obligations to be a Catholic in good standing that simply do not exist. To argue that he is the MOST moral Catholic vote is a legitimate argument that one can make (one should only make it if one is willing to THINK about the various options, I should add), but too many people go way beyond that and I am way more concerned with their sins against the unity of the mysical body of Christ, the means of salvation on earth, than I am about the outcome of any particular election.
[/quote]
I didn't mean to imply that he is the only moral option, but that doesn't mean such an argument couldn't exist. The argument might take place in a different context, it would take certain principles for granted, and the conclusions would be derived from their principles, but we must be open to a possibility generally speaking, even if the idea makes us uncomfortable.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351644765' post='2500709']
[/font][/color]
[color=#282828][font=Open Sans', sans-serif]If their stupid political ideology is in contradiction to their Catholic faith I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect them to have to choose between the two.[/font][/color]
[/quote]

...so we can expect an apology from you any day now, then? Because it sounds to me like your "stupid political ideology" is blinding you to the fact that my Catholic faith allows me to vote for not-Romney.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351644765' post='2500709']
[/font][/color]
[color=#282828][font=Open Sans', sans-serif]If their stupid political ideology is in contradiction to their Catholic faith I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect them to have to choose between the two.[/font][/color]
[/quote]
you are the one accusing various people's political actions or ideas as being contradictory to their Catholic faith, and that is a SERIOUS accusation to make; an accusation that has serious implications for the salvation of their souls, and therefore you have a very serious obligation to substantiate such arguments, or else to sit down and shut the FLoOPY up (no offense, please don't ban me ) because you are the one attacking the unity of the Church based upon FLEETING political goals.

I don't care what your political goals are, whether they're to get Mitt Romney elected or get this or that piece of legislation enacted, when you are utilizing the communion of the Church as a tool to accomplish that goal, you are absolutely sinning against the unity of the Church.

For instance, check out a google search of the phatmass topic you made in open mic: https://www.google.be/search?q=pope+urges+catholics+to+vote+for+romney&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=szN&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&q=pope+benedict+urges+catholics+to+vote+for+romney&oq=pope+benedict+urges+catholics+to+vote+for+romney&gs_l=serp.3...7736.9101.0.9418.9.9.0.0.0.1.108.496.8j1.9.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.N6Ytn7y4Xuk&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=304e00fd89124a46&bpcl=36601534&biw=1366&bih=637

Please notice, the first result is your post, and all the subsequent posts illustrate the exact reason the Pope would never issue such an exhortation: because such an exhortation is concerned with the results of this election, and the Pope is concerned instead with the salvation of souls; rather than urging Catholics to vote one way or another, he urges them to return to the Church.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1351645327' post='2500724']

...so we can expect an apology from you any day now, then? Because it sounds to me like your "stupid political ideology" is blinding you to the fact that my Catholic faith allows me to vote for not-Romney.
[/quote]
I never said or implied a good faithful Catholic, in good conscience, couldn't vote for not-Romney.

I've been consistent in saying that I would question their reasoning skills, not their faith, nor their conscience.

What I also said was that [b]I (me)[/b] could not morally vote for anyone other than Romney, because according to [b]my[/b] reasoning, and [b]my[/b] logic, he is the only viable option to Obama.

Apologies to all who misinterpreted my words.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351645469' post='2500727']
you are the one accusing various people's political actions or ideas as being contradictory to their Catholic faith, and that is a SERIOUS accusation to make; [/quote]
Are you implying that people cannot have political actions or ideas contradictory to their Catholic faith? That seems like an odd stance.

[quote]an accusation that has serious implications for the salvation of their souls, and therefore you have a very serious obligation to substantiate such arguments,[/quote]
Name the person who has political ideas contradictory to their faith and I will try to substantiate the argument against them. I did not name anyone.

[quote]
For instance, check out a google search of the phatmass topic you made in open mic: [url="https://www.google.be/search?q=pope+urges+catholics+to+vote+for+romney&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=szN&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&q=pope+benedict+urges+catholics+to+vote+for+romney&oq=pope+benedict+urges+catholics+to+vote+for+romney&gs_l=serp.3...7736.9101.0.9418.9.9.0.0.0.1.108.496.8j1.9.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.N6Ytn7y4Xuk&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=304e00fd89124a46&bpcl=36601534&biw=1366&bih=637"]https://www.google.b...iw=1366&bih=637[/url]
[/quote]
Wow, my SEO skills rawk.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351645917' post='2500737']
I never said or implied a good faithful Catholic, in good conscience, couldn't vote for not-Romney.
[/quote]

Yes you did! All over the place! UGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351645917' post='2500737']
I've been consistent in saying that I would question their reasoning skills, not their faith, nor their conscience.

What I also said was that [b]I (me)[/b] could not morally vote for anyone other than Romney, because according to [b]my[/b] reasoning, and [b]my[/b] logic, he is the only viable option to Obama.

Apologies to all who misinterpreted my words.
[/quote]

But thank you for FINALLY qualifying your statements.

I guess I'll accept that apology.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Basilisa Marie

[Aloysius]

Alright then, your personal qualifiers in post 27 make your reasoning a hell of a lot better, man. It's extremely important because a lot of people actually do indicate that the only possible moral choice for all Catholics is to vote for Romney, and insodoing they act like one's Catholicism is called into question if they do not vote for Romney and that is NOT OKAY at all.

And certainly opinions on politically related issues can be issues for one's Catholic faith in the realm of morality, I do not mean to imply that this is not; there are absolutely moral issues that one must be opposed to, and voting in favor of those moral issues [i]as such[/i] and [i]for the sake of supporting those immoral positions[/i] is certainly sinful against the moral doctrine of the Church. but there is no moral obligation to vote for a "lesser of two evils", there is a reason Faithful Citizenship uses the word "may" not "must", there is a reason the Pope is not out there campaigning for Mitt Romney, there is a reason Cardinal Dolan gave a prayer at both the RNC and the DNC and invited both major candidates to the Al Smith Dinner; too much has been done to make political allegiance synonymous with Catholic faith, and that is evil and poisonous and I don't care what your political goals are you ought to repudiate that trend.