I Despise The Pledge Of Allegiance

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1351281671' post='2498072']
Henry and other's lost the argument of the idea of a 'loose' union of individual states. It was addressing specific issues when the war was won and terms were being negotiated with England in conjuction with our relationship with France. It came up again during the Civil war. Like it or not, you're arguing with the reality of what is.

Want a different system? Revolution, not re-interpretation.
[/quote]
Actually the inclusion of the Bill of Rights and specifically the 9th and 10th amendments were successes for the anti-federalists (or concessions by the federalists, however you want to look at it), and then politically the Federalist party ended up getting pummeled into non-existence... so all in all the Jeffersonian ideal that included state sovereignty won out. not as loose of a union as the Articles of Confederation, of course, but still a much looser union than the system that arose especially after the Civil War era but even moreso in the latter half of the 20th century.

I'm not reinterpreting anything. "perpetual" was kept out of the Constitution because the right to secession, which was NOT permitted under the Articles of Confederation, was considered permitted by the Constitution, since states were wary of giving up too many rights to a centralized government they were wary of signing anything that could not be undone if the wanted it to be. The Civil War consisted of using war, not law, to bring the states back into union. Because nothing in the Constitution made what the Confederacy did illegal.

State sovereignty was certainly preserved after the signing of the Constitution; I'm not arguing that it wasn't a strong union with a central government that could act on behalf of all the states on its own accord; but the Constitution certainly limited the central government to only doing very particular things as enumerated by the Constitution, and the 9th and 10th amendments were meant to guarantee that.

not sure what you're arguing against, but the Federalists may have gotten the Constitution signed, but they had to concede the Bill of Rights in doing so and their interpretation of it didn't last very long as the Jeffersonian Republicans pretty much annihilated them.

[Aloysius]

oh, and I'm not arguing that we're not "one nation under God"; that seems to be Winnie's thing here, I don't really have a problem with the Pledge... I just think that the nation consists of the several states with their own sovereignty, the right to secede, and the right to nullify.

[Anomaly]

Political regeimes with representation usually reflect what people want, or will tolerate. All Governments, because of the power to be had by politicians, push the limits of the populace's tolerance. The reality is, the majority of the people will tolerate a lot if they can get a decent meal, have a decent house, and can live to see their kids have kids. The vast majority people are passionate about principles, they're more concerned with daily practicality. It's hard to fight against the inertia of mass apathy.

[Aloysius]

That's true. So what's your point?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1351281836' post='2498075']
Ah, finally I can post this without everyone getting their panties in a twist.
[/quote]

If it weren't for 'Merica Canadians would die of boredom.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351283342' post='2498102']
That's true. So what's your point?
[/quote]
I just made my point. Don't be a hater.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1351283359' post='2498103']
If it weren't for 'Merica Canadians would die of boredom.
[/quote]

Or maybe we would actually get something done for once.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1351283593' post='2498108']
I just made my point. Don't be a hater.
[/quote]
haha okay. i thought we were having a debate about American history and the form of government and how it has evolved to its present form historically, and what form it should be in. but if your only point is that people generally don't care about anything other than their everyday lives; I'd agree with that. which is why we're supposed to have this republican form of government where the people that do care can get involved and work hard to affect the government for the better and have a much bigger impact than just pulling a lever every four years like the average apathetic fellow does.

anyway, I think my points on here were the rights to secession, the right to nullification, and the general precedence of the authority of the states in most areas.

[Winchester]

Probably not a fan of enumerated powers, either.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351284137' post='2498121']
haha okay. i thought we were having a debate about American history and the form of government and how it has evolved to its present form historically, and what form it should be in. but if your only point is that people generally don't care about anything other than their everyday lives; I'd agree with that. which is why we're supposed to have this republican form of government where the people that do care can get involved and work hard to affect the government for the better and have a much bigger impact than just pulling a lever every four years like the average apathetic fellow does.

anyway, I think my points on here were the rights to secession, the right to nullification, and the general precedence of the authority of the states in most areas.
[/quote]Pretty much.
[color=#222222][font='Arial', 'sans-serif'][size=2]The advancement of civilized society has empowered the majority to live the bourgeois lifestyle, anchored in pragmatic reality. Love it or hate it, (philosophies change over the generations), it's the reality. Passions in the real world are usually superficial, or on an esoteric level that is fundamentally irrelevant. It reminds me of a New Radicals song...[/size][/font][/color]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1351283876' post='2498118']


Or maybe we would actually get something done for once.
[/quote]

Maybe, but I don't know what drinking beer and watching trees grow would accomplish. Other than more boring bored Canadians.

[BG45]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1351283876' post='2498118']
Or maybe we would actually get something done for once.
[/quote]

You all would also embrace Manifest Destiny and fill into the now abandoned country until Canada stretched from Mexico to the Arctic?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1351287945' post='2498170']

You all would also embrace Manifest Destiny and fill into the now abandoned country until Canada stretched from Mexico to the Arctic?
[/quote]
Apparently we are just happy with the Arctic.

[havok579257]

do people honestly think succession would work? technically it could work for the states that border canada or mexico of the ocean but that it. succession would never work for a state that did not have a direct route to other countries. also if a single state succeeds have fun trying to defend yourself with only your fellow statesman who have your back when someone invades your tiny country.

so i ask do people actually think this would work or do they just like saying something they think sounds cool?

[kujo]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1351278940' post='2498037']
Wrong. Read History and figure out what the difference is between the Articles of Confederacy and the Constitution are, when they were written, why a Constitution replacedthe Articles, and what they say.
[/quote]

He's homeschooled. Thus, he's indoctrinated into the right-wing frame of mind, while the rest of us public schoolers were just spoonfed Marxism and liberation theology over our morning Cheerios.