PhuturePriest Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 But dUSt, here's the thing: Voting for a third-party candidate will ALWAYS be seen as a vote "thrown away" unless we learn to bite the bullet and start showing that we are not slaves of the Republican or Democrat parties. So even though you think it's a vote for Obama, it will always be a vote for Obama or the Democrat unless we stop this ridiculous process whereby two parties rule the nation. People need to learn to vote for who they like, not for who they think will get elected. Leading by example is the best way of doing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351028249' post='2496496'] Alysious, Nihil, Red, MIKolbe and anyone else who is not voting for Romney. May I ask, who are you voting for? [/quote] Really? But I have gone over my reasoning before. Personally under the current situation I prefer a refusal to vote, as a refusal to cooperate with a fundamentally unjust system. I also think that voting third party is entirely acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 well, my whole argument was "Don't vote for Romney because he's JUST LIKE OBAMA".... so if anyone even remotely read any part of my post they should clearly understand that not voting for Romney doesn't mean voting for Obama. Who's going to read it like "Romney's just like Obama, therefore I should vote for Obama!"... le sigh, that'd be quite the uninformed jackinape. of course, the target of my argument was certainly people who might otherwise vote for Romney and were unlikely to vote for Obama, so the practical, one might say "[i][b]double[/b][/i]" effect of what I'm saying here is that Obama will likely be re-elected. And I'm perfectly fine with that; I'd rather someone like Obama be president for four more years than someone [i]LIKE [/i]Obama (ie Romney) be president for 4-8 years and the leader of our only chance of opposition (the GOP) for 8 years (well unless he lost the general election, but he'd be coronated for the nomination in 4 obviously). I do not, of course, advocate voting for Obama; but nor do I advocate voting for Romney. And in point of fact if I were to find out any fellow Catholic had voted for Romney or for Obama I would not begrudge them of it; they were, in my estimation, faced with the choice of two pro-choice, pro-war, anti-civil-liberties, anti-religious-conscience candidates and they made a choice; I would say that they wasted their vote by voting for either one of them, but when both candidates are supporters of intrinsic evils, Catholic morality permits you to vote for a "lesser of two evils" if you think it will mitigate the evil... people who think Romney is the lesser who will mitigate have no more valid of an argument to me than people who think Obama is the lesser who will mitigate. Personally, I think a vote for either is a bad action that I do not wish to do in good conscience, and therefore I will vote for whoever I think is good, understanding that the double effect of my good action may be a bad consequence (ie "helping" Obama get re-elected)... but my vote never belonged to Mitt Romney, it was always up to him to earn it. And my original post shows the moments where I felt he showed his true colors and definitively ensured that he would not earn my vote; certainly Obama has not earned my vote. Anyway, I have already sealed my vote in the envelope and am mailing it tomorrow; I am officially not saying who I voted for. I will absolutely guarantee to everyone that I did not vote for Obama; other than that, I'm keeping my choice private. I have suggested writing in, abstaining, Virgil Goode, or Gary Johnson (pragmatic mitigating evil, step in the right direction because he may have a practical effect on pro-life causes while Mitt will not IMO). Everyone's choice is their own. The idea that my argument "helps Obama get re-elected" simply does not concern me, because the difference between Mitt getting elected and Obama being elected is inconsequential to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1351029788' post='2496509'] But dUSt, here's the thing: Voting for a third-party candidate will ALWAYS be seen as a vote "thrown away" unless we learn to bite the bullet and start showing that we are not slaves of the Republican or Democrat parties. So even though you think it's a vote for Obama, it will always be a vote for Obama or the Democrat unless we stop this ridiculous process whereby two parties rule the nation. People need to learn to vote for who they like, not for who they think will get elected. Leading by example is the best way of doing this. [/quote] None of our votes ever belonged to either candidate, and therefore choosing to vote for a third party is not taking a vote away from either candidate. Our votes are our own, and it is up to each candidate to earn them by showing us that he is the better choice. I believe Romney has failed miserably at this purely from the standpoint of a Catholic. I am many things, but I am a Catholic first, and because he has failed the most fundamental aspects that I find important as issues as a Catholic, he has absolutely failed to earn my vote. But he's failed me on so many other levels; as a registered Republican, member of the local Republican committee, and elected delegate to the RNC, and as a general believer in fair Republican Principals of government, he failed me most especially at the state conventions and also the Republican National Convention. As a leaner-towards libertarianist and voluntaryist perspectives (the Ron Paul guy in me), his economics and civil liberties record and stances fail me; but also as a Peschian Solidarist (that's the GK Chesterton and Pius XI in me), his economics fail me even worse than Obama's fail me; as an advocate for Catholic just-war doctrine he fails miserably, no matter what hat I'm wearing, I just can't see any reason to vote for him. he has failed on pretty much every level to earn my vote. I'm not looking for the perfect candidate, I'm just looking for someone that I can vote for that will be remotely a step in the right direction towards anything I believe in for America; I want a candidate I don't feel will be a disaster both for my principals and for the country (both major candidates this round are such disasters). I don't feel I can vote for Romney as a good Catholic, as a good Republican, as a good libertarian, as a good solidarist economist (yes that doesn't typically jive with libertarianism, my amesome synthesis is for another thread), as a good American. He's just wrong for the country, so I advocate not voting for him. Obama fails all of those tests as well, so I advocate not voting for him either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1351017218' post='2496385'] [img]http://theatrethoughts.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/e4d46db6_standing-ovation-auditorium-pop_8703.jpeg[/img] [/quote] Too soon! I haven't posted yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351029303' post='2496502'] I have no problem with Catholics, in good conscience, abstaining from voting or voting third party. That's fine. [/quote] Doesn't America have the preferential voting system? No wait, we've got that and look at our mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1351018488' post='2496401'] It isn't wasting your vote. Pay attention and look at historical reality dealing with the political realities. Yes, if you can't stop something, it's better to try to slow it down if it is impossible to stop it. Slowing something down gives you more time and opportunity to try and stop something. Throwing up your hands and giving up because you can't stop something is only ensuring failure. Do something meaningful now, even if it's only as small victory or gaining a little time. If Obama wins, all that does is give more political power and political inertia to the political Party that fully supports unrestricted abortion as a political goal. [/quote] I am not throwing up my hands and giving up. I am actually fighting for real change this time instead of the status quo. Romney won't do anything substantial to stop abortion because he is the lesser evil and gets people like you to vote for him. There is a GOP campaign headquarters near where I am, and I have it on good information that the GOP will specifically not do anything substantial on abortion because it gets them the "pro-life" vote. Keep throwing your vote away to the federal GOP. When was the last time at the federal level was there a meaningful abortion restriction? Why is Planned Parenthood still being funded despite the GOP controlling everything in 2002-2004 or so? [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351027828' post='2496484'] [i][color=#282828][font=Open Sans', sans-serif]"When all candidates hold a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, the conscientious voter faces a dilemma. The voter may decide to take the extraordinary step of not voting for any candidate or, after careful deliberation, [/font][/color][b][color=#ff0000][font=Open Sans', sans-serif]may decide to vote for the candidate [/font][font=Open Sans', sans-serif]deemed less likely to advance such a morally flawed position[/font][/color][/b][color=#282828][font=Open Sans', sans-serif] and more likely to pursue other authentic human goods."[/font][/color][/i] [font=Open Sans, sans-serif][color=#282828]I believe that between Romney and Obama, the choice is obviously clear on who is less likely to advance abortion. If you disagree, I am not questioning your moral compass or exercise of your good conscience. What I am questioning is your lack of a pragmatic and common sense approach to making your vote actually count for something.[/color][/font] [/quote] See I would say the same thing back. Why vote for what is very likely going to be the status quo? [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1351028296' post='2496498'] The Presidency isn't just about the individual. It's also about the specific party gaining additional power to direct and put into effect political agenda. The effects of voting are vastly different when voting for National or State Representative, Govenor, etc. The real change is done on the local political races and takes time. The Presidential race is more about supporting the specifica Political Party Machine that are already weilding power on a national level. In the Presidential race this year, only a Democrat or Republican candidate will win. What has the Democratic party done to support or fight against restricting abortion? Do you think the National Democratic party will do anything (on the National level) but further their efforts to provide readily available abortion, pay for it with tax dollars, and continually fight against efforts to restrict or limit abortion? If so, explain to me why? [/quote] Explain to me what [b]meaningful [/b]restrictions on abortion the GOP has done in the past 10 years. What has the GOP done on abortion to warrant belief that the party is interested in ending abortion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351031918' post='2496545'] None of our votes ever belonged to either candidate, and therefore choosing to vote for a third party is not taking a vote away from either candidate. Our votes are our own, and it is up to each candidate to earn them by showing us that he is the better choice. I believe Romney has failed miserably at this purely from the standpoint of a Catholic. I am many things, but I am a Catholic first, and because he has failed the most fundamental aspects that I find important as issues as a Catholic, he has absolutely failed to earn my vote. But he's failed me on so many other levels; as a registered Republican, member of the local Republican committee, and elected delegate to the RNC, and as a general believer in fair Republican Principals of government, he failed me most especially at the state conventions and also the Republican National Convention. As a leaner-towards libertarianist and voluntaryist perspectives (the Ron Paul guy in me), his economics and civil liberties record and stances fail me; but also as a Peschian Solidarist (that's the GK Chesterton and Pius XI in me), his economics fail me even worse than Obama's fail me; as an advocate for Catholic just-war doctrine he fails miserably, no matter what hat I'm wearing, I just can't see any reason to vote for him. he has failed on pretty much every level to earn my vote. I'm not looking for the perfect candidate, I'm just looking for someone that I can vote for that will be remotely a step in the right direction towards anything I believe in for America; I want a candidate I don't feel will be a disaster both for my principals and for the country (both major candidates this round are such disasters). I don't feel I can vote for Romney as a good Catholic, as a good Republican, as a good libertarian, as a good solidarist economist (yes that doesn't typically jive with libertarianism, my amesome synthesis is for another thread), as a good American. He's just wrong for the country, so I advocate not voting for him. Obama fails all of those tests as well, so I advocate not voting for him either. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1351029788' post='2496509'] But dUSt, here's the thing: Voting for a third-party candidate will ALWAYS be seen as a vote "thrown away" unless we learn to bite the bullet and start showing that we are not slaves of the Republican or Democrat parties. So even though you think it's a vote for Obama, it will always be a vote for Obama or the Democrat unless we stop this ridiculous process whereby two parties rule the nation. People need to learn to vote for who they like, not for who they think will get elected. Leading by example is the best way of doing this. [/quote] That is absolutely beautiful but unfortunately it's unrealistic. Technically it is a vote for Obama because that is one less vote for Romney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='Freedom' timestamp='1351033209' post='2496575'] That is absolutely beautiful but unfortunately it's unrealistic. Technically it is a vote for Obama because that is one less vote for Romney. [/quote] nope. technically it's a vote for whomever you cast your vote for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351031918' post='2496545'] None of our votes ever belonged to either candidate, and therefore choosing to vote for a third party is not taking a vote away from either candidate. Our votes are our own, and it is up to each candidate to earn them by showing us that he is the better choice. I believe Romney has failed miserably at this purely from the standpoint of a Catholic. I am many things, but I am a Catholic first, and because he has failed the most fundamental aspects that I find important as issues as a Catholic, he has absolutely failed to earn my vote. But he's failed me on so many other levels; as a registered Republican, member of the local Republican committee, and elected delegate to the RNC, and as a general believer in fair Republican Principals of government, he failed me most especially at the state conventions and also the Republican National Convention. As a leaner-towards libertarianist and voluntaryist perspectives (the Ron Paul guy in me), his economics and civil liberties record and stances fail me; but also as a Peschian Solidarist (that's the GK Chesterton and Pius XI in me), his economics fail me even worse than Obama's fail me; as an advocate for Catholic just-war doctrine he fails miserably, no matter what hat I'm wearing, I just can't see any reason to vote for him. he has failed on pretty much every level to earn my vote. I'm not looking for the perfect candidate, I'm just looking for someone that I can vote for that will be remotely a step in the right direction towards anything I believe in for America; I want a candidate I don't feel will be a disaster both for my principals and for the country (both major candidates this round are such disasters). I don't feel I can vote for Romney as a good Catholic, as a good Republican, as a good libertarian, as a good solidarist economist (yes that doesn't typically jive with libertarianism, my amesome synthesis is for another thread), as a good American. He's just wrong for the country, so I advocate not voting for him. Obama fails all of those tests as well, so I advocate not voting for him either. [/quote] Proof that Ron Paul is the bee's knees: During the previous meeting I had with my spiritual director a week ago we talked about how amesome he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='Freedom' timestamp='1351033209' post='2496575'] That is absolutely beautiful but unfortunately it's unrealistic. Technically it is a vote for Obama because that is one less vote for Romney. [/quote] It's a vote for whoever you vote for. There is such a disordered thought process in America that if you don't vote for the Republican than it's a vote given to the Democrat. It's NOT a vote for the Democrat. It's a vote for a third-party candidate. You can't convince me to vote for a bad candidate simply because a different candidate that is on the same level of error will get elected instead. We need to vote for who our formed consciences tell us to vote for, not who we are urged to vote for in the name of two-party dominance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1351033582' post='2496579'] It's a vote for whoever you vote for. There is such a disordered thought process in America that if you don't vote for the Republican than it's a vote given to the Democrat. It's NOT a vote for the Democrat. It's a vote for a third-party candidate. You can't convince me to vote for a bad candidate simply because a different candidate that is on the same level of error will get elected instead. We need to vote for who our formed consciences tell us to vote for, not who we are urged to vote for in the name of two-party dominance. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 There will be no change through cooperation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1351033582' post='2496579'] It's a vote for whoever you vote for. There is such a disordered thought process in America that if you don't vote for the Republican than it's a vote given to the Democrat. It's NOT a vote for the Democrat. It's a vote for a third-party candidate. You can't convince me to vote for a bad candidate simply because a different candidate that is on the same level of error will get elected instead. We need to vote for who our formed consciences tell us to vote for, not who we are urged to vote for in the name of two-party dominance. [/quote] Do you remember what happened when Ross Perot was running? He took votes away from the Republicans & the Democrat won. He ran to split the vote & it worked. Ross Perot was never to be heard of again. Can you convince the rest of America to vote for a third party? It's a complete waste of a vote because either the DemocRAT or the Republican will win the Presidency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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