My Homily If I Were A Saying The Mass This Week.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1351014593' post='2496361']
So wait..

you're advocating voting for a guy who sees nothing wrong with (and will do nothing to stop) killing babies and torturing people? You're actually on a Catholic Board telling me that I'm the one caught up in a utopia (sic) fantasy for demanding this (as a minimal requisite) of the people who would have my vote?

pretty cool mental gymnastics, bro.
[/quote]That's why we have legalized abortion in the first place. Do you think it is more or less likely there will be any hope of restricting abortion with a Democrat president and Democrats in power? As small as the possibility may be, at least there is some hope that Republicans may restrict abortion? The President as a person has limited power, the power lays mostly with the political party that derives additional power when it holds the Presidency.

Abortion is not the equivalent of torture, just as there is a distinct difference between cutting a throat or stabbing them.

Has the Democratic party ever proposed a bill to limit abortion? Has the Rebublican party ever proposed a bill to limit abortion? Which party (if any) ever proposed a bill to put restrictions on abortion? Which party (if any) provided more support? If a bill was passed, what was the Party affiliation of a President who may or may not have vetoed it? Which party (if any) sought to limit restrictions? If a bill passed, what was the Party affiliation of the majority of supporting over-ruling the veto? If it was challenged in the Supreme Court, which Party nominated the Judges who ruled to uphold it, or ruled against it?


It's not 'mental gynastics' on a Catholic Board. Here's a thought provoking article providing a look at the realities of American Politics and their effect on the efforts to enact the Partial Birth Abortion Ban that has taken decades: [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/family/documents/rc_pc_family_doc_20030331_partial-birth-abortion_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/family/documents/rc_pc_family_doc_20030331_partial-birth-abortion_en.html[/url]

[dUSt]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1351017822' post='2496393']
no, it's called rationalizing evil.
[/quote]
I prefer to call it prioritizing evil.

If I walk into a bank that is being robbed, and there are two masked robbers, and robber B is shooting hostages, and robber A is doing nothing to stop the shooting, I'm not gonna go tackle robber A. That's dumb.

[4588686]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351018873' post='2496405']
I prefer to call it prioritizing evil.

If I walk into a bank that is being robbed, and there are two masked robbers, and robber B is shooting hostages, and robber A is doing nothing to stop the shooting, I'm not gonna go tackle robber A. That's dumb.
[/quote]

Neither candidate is shooting anyone. Both have the power to appoint somebody who may, though probably won't, decide that contrary to the assumptions of the times and decades of legal precedents that abortion is no longer a federal protected right. Which would then give the congress the power to someday propose a law outlawing abortion. Which won't get anywhere because the senate will just filibuster the bill.

But sure, vote for the President based on an issue that neither has any substantive ability to influence.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351018873' post='2496405']
I prefer to call it prioritizing evil.

If I walk into a bank that is being robbed, and there are two masked robbers, and robber B is shooting hostages, and robber A is doing nothing to stop the shooting, I'm not gonna go tackle robber A. That's dumb.
[/quote]
congratulations, you've tackled robber B! now robber A gets to run away with the loot and shoot a couple [i]different [/i]people on his way out than the ones you saved. smooth move, ex lax.

I like that analogy, as it makes it very easy to make my point: don't support either of the robbers or either of the killers.

and actually, Hasan, both of them are shooting people. they're called drone strikes, but they're more properly called indiscriminately bombing the hell out of people.

and both of them will protect as a right the killing of children in the womb at home; they don't do the killing, but they'll make beaver dam sure government or medical standards or insurance coverage won't stand in the way. and oh yeah, for good measure they'll both keep chugging along the precedent wherein things that are morally objectionable are paid for by mandated insurance programs.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Aloysius

[Nihil Obstat]

It seems to me that there is some significant difference between tackling robber A or robber B, and actively helping one of the two of them escape.

"Well hey, I would prefer that the one who is not shooting people escapes now so that the police can catch the one who is shooting people quicker."

Edited October 23, 2012 by Nihil Obstat

[Lil Red]

[quote name='ToJesusMyHeart' timestamp='1350954584' post='2496134']
But his VP might change his mind!
[/quote]


hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

i don't think so.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1350986539' post='2496257']
ugh. his VP changed his mind alright, changed his own mind and threw his support behind Mitt's official exceptions. Now, when exceptions are just rape and incest and the life of the mother, that's certainly not the Catholic position but it'd be better than what we have now as a step in the right direction. But Mitt's exceptions don't stop there. Mitt's exceptions include "for the health of the mother"--that's the codeword for a pro-life person who's really pro-choice, because the health of the mother can include the "mental" health, it can even be stretched to include the financial "health"/well being... it's been done before. And yes, your boy Paul Ryan is standing with Romney on that ugly little loophole.

I don't want Paul Ryan as president in 8 years. Any redeeming qualities he may have had he's sleezed up by joining himself at the hip with Mitt. Exceptions for rape/life of the mother makes you moderately pro-life and perhaps a step in the right direction. But an exception for "the health of the mother" makes you pro-choice, not pro-life at all; not a step in the right direction, in fact it's a step in the wrong direction as an attempt to co-opt and silence the pro-life movement. It's as simple as that. a vote for Mitt Romney is a vote to co-opt the pro-life movement and render it useless for the next eight years. Don't throw your vote away on him.
[/quote]


This. A thousand times this.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351020174' post='2496416']
congratulations, you've tackled robber B! now robber A gets to run away with the loot and shoot a couple [i]different [/i]people on his way out than the ones you saved. smooth move, ex lax.
[/quote]
No, robber A said he wouldn't do that. It was worth the chance to save some lives. You base your arguments on speculation. I base my action on reality.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351008051' post='2496312']
Virgil Goode is pro-life. Sadly Gary Johnson is not, though he's in favor of states being allowed to illegalize it (overturning Roe v Wade) making him better than Romney or Obama IMO, because he would be likely to appoint constitutionalists to the SCOTUS (whereas Romney will appoint in a way to maintain the status quo). But yeah, I'm not voting for Gary; I'd go for Virgil if you want pro-life; if he's not on the ballot in your state it's likely he's at least a certified write-in candidate meaning they'll definitely count votes for him.

Larry King is moderating the four main third party candidates debate tonight, it'll be covered by C-Span and broadcast online, you should tune in.

I don't consider Romney less pro-choice than Obama; at least not in terms of practical policies. Maybe in terms of personal views Romney [i]might [/i]be more pro-life, but both of them are the same from a policy standpoint; both want it protected as a right; both have records of healthcare mandate policies even to the point of mandating contraceptive coverage in employer's health insurance without conscience exemptions (which Romney in the second debate affirmed would still be his position, that employer's cannot decide not to include contraceptive coverage in healthcare); Romney's not even really against Obamacare, he basically just supports tweaking it slightly. Anyway, here's my recap of why I don't think Romney's good on any of the issues that are fundamentally important for Catholics
www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/124758-dont-vote-for-romney/
[/quote]
as i understand, Goode is for enhanced interrogation i.e. torture. which the Church has said no to.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351008595' post='2496315']
and yeah, nothing seemed too blunt but if it did, it's all cool between phamily here. let's all remember not to make politics too important that it should drive a wedge between phriends or phamily.
[/quote]

so hard to do when you want to beat people over the head.

but agreed again. once again, any post i make in a topic that you post in should just say, "I agree with almost everything Aloysius says."

[4588686]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351021237' post='2496423']
No, robber A said he wouldn't do that. It was worth the chance to save some lives. You base your arguments on speculation. I base my action on reality.
[/quote]


That's interesting. Because before you walked into the bank and had to make that choice, Robber A promised to do just that to everybody in the bank for like 20 years. I bet he's telling the truth. He doesn't have a reason to lie.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1351021732' post='2496429']


That's interesting. Because before you walked into the bank and had to make that choice, Robber A promised to do just that to everybody in the bank for like 20 years. I bet he's telling the truth. He doesn't have a reason to lie.
[/quote]
Do people do that? Just [i]lie[/i] to people?

[img]http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/You+really+think+someone+would+do+that+.+Just+go+on_981b71_3201562.jpg[/img]

[MIKolbe]

[quote]
That's why we have legalized abortion in the first place. Do you think it is more or less likely there will be any hope of restricting abortion with a Democrat president and Democrats in power? As small as the possibility may be, at least there is some hope that Republicans may restrict abortion? The President as a person has limited power, the power lays mostly with the political party that derives additional power when it holds the Presidency.
[/quote]

Why would I vote for someone with the small (infinitessially small..near-unexistingly small) prossibility he would attempt, let alone do anything other than the other popular candidates, when I could vote for someone with a big possibilty he would attempt, let alone do anything other than the popular candidates?

[quote]
Abortion is not the equivalent of torture, just as there is a distinct difference between cutting a throat or stabbing them.
[/quote]

Torture, normally, doesn’t result in death. When it does, it’s called murder. The Church has spoken out against torture, as being against the sanctity of life. Granted, I understand where you are coming from that this life issue may or may not carry as much weight as it might have in the past. (If I am remembering what you have shared in the past; if not, I certainly do not mean to misrepresent you)

[quote]Has the Democratic party ever proposed a bill to limit abortion? Has the Rebublican party ever proposed a bill to limit abortion? Which party (if any) ever proposed a bill to put restrictions on abortion? Which party (if any) provided more support? If a bill was passed, what was the Party affiliation of a President who may or may not have vetoed it? Which party (if any) sought to limit restrictions? If a bill passed, what was the Party affiliation of the majority of supporting over-ruling the veto? If it was challenged in the Supreme Court, which Party nominated the Judges who ruled to uphold it, or ruled against it? [/quote]

If this party is doing such a great job, why has nothing substancial changed? I’ll tell you why. People are more concerned about their party then about real human beings being killed in the womb. Sorry if that is polarizing. They will clutch to the hope of [i]“Golly-gee I’m really gonna do something about that, Mr. Hernandez, but you GOTTA elect me. The other guy will be sooo horrible!! Trust me! I promise! I will, as my only campaign promise, do something about this!! I needed to make some tough decisions in the past, and I’m sorry about that, I really am..politics is a dog eat dog profession sometimes…. but let’s talk about the future!![/i]

But nothing changes. People compromise their morals: allowing, voting for (and in some cases, advocating) what they know is wrong, just for the sake of the party….Letting themselves be duped over and over again.

Then, if they dare think, “this party is all talk…they’ve done nothing...they always promise they will and never do, this heck with this!”, they get to be labeled as wanting a ‘perfect candidate’, being ‘utopian’, ‘selfish’, ‘really helping the other guy win”. And.. well.. the party knows this, and has learned to ‘fiddle the tune’ every election cycle. And we all fall in line like good little subjects. Not only has the party learned to fiddle, they now know it’s ok not to be prolife..heck..isn’t political life easier when you just put up the façade, but really don’t care and use it as a bargaining chip for that one big bill on the hill? Sure it is! And well, who else we gonna vote for? Where else are we gonna go? As long as the other guys LOVES abortion, they’ll just need to say they kinda don’t like it. We’ll eat it up!!!! And then…sell us off down the road as a politcal sacrifice to mammon. Next election cycle: wash, rinse, repeat.

It’s akin to a battered wife needing to understand that her husband was just angry that day! That’s why he hit her!! [i]Give him another chance, baby.. he’ll get better. He totally just flipped out after a hard long day at work, and he’ll never do it again.. Plus, couldn’t you’ve been a little more understanding when he has rough days? Where you gonna go if you leave, woman? Come on! He gives you a house, a nice car, and a good life. If you’re looking for Mr. Perfect, you ain’t never gonna find him, gurl. You know if you leave, you lose all that you have. It may not be perfect, but hey… in reality.. it’s all you got. Don’t be the one responsible for wrecking your marriage![/i]

And then somehow, a week or 2 later, her face seems to smash itself against his fist...and it starts again....

[quote]
It's not 'mental gynastics' on a Catholic Board. Here's a thought provoking article providing a look at the realities of American Politics and their effect on the efforts to enact the Partial Birth Abortion Ban that has taken decades: [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/family/documents/rc_pc_family_doc_20030331_partial-birth-abortion_en.html"]http://www.vatican.v...bortion_en.html[/url]
[/quote]

I have not read the info on the link yet, but I will. Thanks for reading this, Anamoly. We might not always agree, but I hope to always see/understand where you are coming from. I appreciate the time you’ve taken to dialouge/read.

[Lil Red]

[img]https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/14327_424269107632148_1277049292_n.jpg[/img]

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351018873' post='2496405']
I prefer to call it prioritizing evil.

If I walk into a bank that is being robbed, and there are two masked robbers, and robber B is shooting hostages, and robber A is doing nothing to stop the shooting, I'm not gonna go tackle robber A. That's dumb.
[/quote]
tell me you didn't come up with that all by yourself...

i love you.

lololol

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='FutureCarmeliteClaire' timestamp='1351003310' post='2496295']
Anyway, it's not like me internet debating will change anyone's mind, but... Yeah.
[/quote]

That's not particularly true. Aloysius and Eagle_Eye turned me into a Ron Paul supporter through their debating. The wheels were already set in motion by my sister and our friend in college, but they sealed the deal for me and finalized what was going on in my mind intellectually.