Anomaly Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='FutureCarmeliteClaire' timestamp='1351003310' post='2496295'] People say that we should vote for Romney to get Obama out of office, but to me, I don't really see much of a difference between the two. I can't support evil, no matter which one is lesser. Anyway, it's not like me internet debating will change anyone's mind, but... Yeah. [/quote]The fact that people are 'holding out' for the "perfect" choice is why the greater evil always wins because choosing to do nothing puts no limits on the evil. Even Jesus was pragmatic when he talked about letting the weeds grow with the wheat, choosing imperfect people to follow him around and prostelize for him, offending people when he visited tax collectors, and healing the sick on the Sabbath Day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='FutureCarmeliteClaire' timestamp='1351003375' post='2496296'] It will only not exist if we have attitudes like that. [/quote] It will never exist. We are on earth, not in heaven. We should work with what we have to make a difference rather than being non-factors in a fantasy world political statement. And forgive my bluntness. It is a flaw of mine. I speak plainly around friends and family and I consider all of you my family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351005706' post='2496300'] It will never exist. We are on earth, not in heaven. We should work with what we have to make a difference rather than being non-factors in a fantasy world political statement. And forgive my bluntness. It is a flaw of mine. I speak plainly around friends and family and I consider all of you my family. [/quote] There must be a line of invisible text between sentences one and two (three?) because those two don't jive, turkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) I'm not holding out for perfect. Not at all. Not even Ron Paul was perfect in my view (though he was the most honorable politician, neigh, statesman, in recent times). The point is not just that Romney's not perfect. He's not even close to perfect. You might as well vote for Obama with an R after his name. His record on life is abysmal, and he even allows for 'health of the mother' exception on abortion which practically means pro-choice; and on top of all that his economics policies are a joke. I made a thread in Debate Table to go over all that in more detail if anyone's interested. I would be perfectly happy to vote for someone who was a step in the right direction from Obama. Please point me to the candidate that happens to be a pragmatic step in the right direction from Obama and I'll gladly consider them. But Romney is a step in the wrong direction, the absolute wrong direction. And it would put Romney in the highest position in the Republican Party for the next eight years making the Republican Party a less effective tool for life issues. Edited October 23, 2012 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinytherese Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 How do you put Romney on the same level as Obama in regards to abortion? At least he is [i]less [/i]pro-choice than him. I can't think of anyone more pro-choice than Obama. HHS and Obamacare anyone? I thought that Romney was at least against Obamacare. I know that this is a throw-away vote, but at least hypothetically speaking, are any there any third party politicians who truly are pro-life without reservations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) Virgil Goode is pro-life. Sadly Gary Johnson is not, though he's in favor of states being allowed to illegalize it (overturning Roe v Wade) making him better than Romney or Obama IMO, because he would be likely to appoint constitutionalists to the SCOTUS (whereas Romney will appoint in a way to maintain the status quo). But yeah, I'm not voting for Gary; I'd go for Virgil if you want pro-life; if he's not on the ballot in your state it's likely he's at least a certified write-in candidate meaning they'll definitely count votes for him. Larry King is moderating the four main third party candidates debate tonight, it'll be covered by C-Span and broadcast online, you should tune in. I don't consider Romney less pro-choice than Obama; at least not in terms of practical policies. Maybe in terms of personal views Romney [i]might [/i]be more pro-life, but both of them are the same from a policy standpoint; both want it protected as a right; both have records of healthcare mandate policies even to the point of mandating contraceptive coverage in employer's health insurance without conscience exemptions (which Romney in the second debate affirmed would still be his position, that employer's cannot decide not to include contraceptive coverage in healthcare); Romney's not even really against Obamacare, he basically just supports tweaking it slightly. Anyway, here's my recap of why I don't think Romney's good on any of the issues that are fundamentally important for Catholics www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/124758-dont-vote-for-romney/ Edited October 23, 2012 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351005706' post='2496300'] It will never exist. We are on earth, not in heaven. We should work with what we have to make a difference rather than being non-factors in a fantasy world political statement. And forgive my bluntness. It is a flaw of mine. I speak plainly around friends and family and I consider all of you my family. [/quote] the true non-factors are the voters who vote their party line even when the candidate is fundamentally at odds with their principles. those are the people that the politicians don't pay attention to, because they can count on them; those are the people whose issues are non-priorities to the politicians, because they can get elected without doing anything substantial for them. voting for Romney is the way to waste your vote, party-line voters are the true non-factors. And if you've fooled yourself into thinking that you're not just a party-line voter but you end up convincing yourself of the lesser of two evils argument every four years, I hate to break it to you but you're a party-line voter and the powers that be of the party never doubted for a second you'd fall in line. As Karl Rove once said, "where would they go?" and yeah, nothing seemed too blunt but if it did, it's all cool between phamily here. let's all remember not to make politics too important that it should drive a wedge between phriends or phamily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) The whole "buck up, reality bites so vote for Romney" attitude really bothers me. [quote][color=#282828][font=Open Sans', sans-serif]I think all of you who are not voting for Romney/Ryan have lost your minds and have somehow got caught up in some type of utopia fantasy that will never exist.[/font][/color][/quote] So what, we're just supposed to be complicit with society's sin? Isn't the laity's special job supposed to be working to transform society in whatever area we have influence in? Last time I checked, that "utopia fantasy that will never exist" is called the Kingdom of Heaven, which we are supposed to be working for here on earth. I'm not saying you shouldn't vote for Romney. I think a Catholic can, in good conscience, make that choice (among others). But this attitude is terrible. What if a Catholic, in good conscience, can't rationalize a vote for Romney? Are people SERIOUSLY telling fellow Catholics to "do the hard thing" by violating their consciences? Edit: [quote][color=#282828][font='Open Sans', sans-serif]We should work with what we have to make a difference rather than being non-factors in a fantasy world political statement.[/font][/color][/quote] ...okay, fine. But I still hate it when people demonize people who won't vote for Romney. Edited October 23, 2012 by Basilisa Marie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FutureCarmeliteClaire Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1351007027' post='2496308'] I'm not holding out for perfect. Not at all. Not even Ron Paul was perfect in my view (though he was the most honorable politician, neigh, statesman, in recent times). The point is not just that Romney's not perfect. He's not even close to perfect. You might as well vote for Obama with an R after his name. His record on life is abysmal, and he even allows for 'health of the mother' exception on abortion which practically means pro-choice; and on top of all that his economics policies are a joke. I made a thread in Debate Table to go over all that in more detail if anyone's interested. I would be perfectly happy to vote for someone who was a step in the right direction from Obama. Please point me to the candidate that happens to be a pragmatic step in the right direction from Obama and I'll gladly consider them. But Romney is a step in the wrong direction, the absolute wrong direction. And it would put Romney in the highest position in the Republican Party for the next eight years making the Republican Party a less effective tool for life issues. [/quote] Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1350961082' post='2496172'] but hi VP might be the prez in 8 yrs. think ahead folks, think ahead [/quote] YES!!!! embrace the evil now, it's better for the future!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351002560' post='2496292'] I think all of you who are not voting for Romney/Ryan have lost your minds and have somehow got caught up in some type of utopia fantasy that will never exist. It's called reality. Google it. [/quote] So wait.. you're advocating voting for a guy who sees nothing wrong with (and will do nothing to stop) killing babies and torturing people? You're actually on a Catholic Board telling me that I'm the one caught up in a utopia (sic) fantasy for demanding this (as a minimal requisite) of the people who would have my vote? pretty cool mental gymnastics, bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1351014593' post='2496361'] you're advocating voting for a guy who sees nothing wrong with (and will do nothing to stop) killing babies and torturing people? [/quote] You use very polarizing language, but if you would like me to answer your question, I'll pretend that you asked it in a more rational manner. Candidate A) does nothing to stop abortion Candidate B) promotes, encourages and forces people to pay for more abortions Yes, I advocate voting for candidate A. That is not mental gymnastics. That is common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Candidate A has, as a governor, promoted and forced people to pay for abortions/contraceptives without conscience exemptions. Candidate A has recently, in stating his position, included the 'health of the mother' exemption that is code-word for a pro-choicer pretending to be pro-life (because all pregnancies are strains on the health of the mother so this exemption is able to permit all abortions), signaling that he still holds the same position that his record indicates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351017166' post='2496383'] You use very polarizing language, but if you would like me to answer your question, I'll pretend that you asked it in a more rational manner. Candidate A) does nothing to stop abortion Candidate B) promotes, encourages and forces people to pay for more abortions Yes, I advocate voting for candidate A. That is not mental gymnastics. That is common sense. [/quote] Neither candidate forces anyone to pay for abortions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1351017166' post='2496383'] You use very polarizing language, but if you would like me to answer your question, I'll pretend that you asked it in a more rational manner. Candidate A) does nothing to stop abortion Candidate B) promotes, encourages and forces people to pay for more abortions Yes, I advocate voting for candidate A. That is not mental gymnastics. That is common sense. [/quote] no, it's called rationalizing evil. try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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