Joe Biden's Religion: Catholicism Or Leftism?

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1350656154' post='2494810']
If there is another procedure available that would not result in death of the unborn, that would be the option to take.
[/quote]

According to Catholic doctrine, it also depends on whether or not the mother can wait for the procedure. This is the quote I found relating to St. Gianna's case:

[quote]"Abortion – that is, the directly intended termination of pregnancy before viability or the directly intended destruction of a viable fetus – is never permitted...Operations, treatments, and medications that have as their direct purpose the cure of a proportionately serious pathological condition of a pregnant woman are permitted when they cannot be safely postponed until the unborn child is viable, even if they will result in the death of the unborn child." – The Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services (ERD) Directive 45[/quote]

I agree that every option that would save the life of the unborn should be considered. St. Gianna is my hero. She was so brave and courageous.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1350670689' post='2494902']
Yeah, just like in-womb persons, mentally handicapped, and others who can't make it to the polling station are glad that others can decide if they live or die.
[/quote]

I wish I could prop this.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1350669081' post='2494881']


It sure is a hell of a way to get the middle-class and working poor to consistently against their economic interests
[/quote]
I ask because I know someone who was exposed to high smog while young, and has a lung problem which if aggravated enough without medication could kill that person. Over 7 million in the US have this condition. Others are more prone to heart attacks based on what pollution is in the air that day, and some people have told me this is not a pro-life issue.

Someone has no medical insurance and is not financially independent to get the same help as some others, yet could die if his medication could not be afforded, and some people have told me this is not a pro-life issue.

Some others have a cigarette addiction that will eventually kill them, and we tax cigarettes but don't offer much substantial support for quitting, and some people have told me this is not a pro-life issue.

Someone else has no job to provide insurance, and risks death every day, and some people have told me this is not a pro-life issue.

Others live and die on the streets, losing their homes, begging for food, like the guy my co-worker lives near, or the gentleman I saw on my way home today, or in places like NY where they are not only subject to the violence of downtown LA where you can be killed in your sleep, but the cold that kills even when you are alone, and some people have told me this is not a pro-life issue.

My state has three of the last decade's top 10 cities for human trafficking, where women and children (even those who are not yet into puberty) end up drugged, starved, abused, and forced to have sex with whatever possibly disease carrying person pays enough for them, and runaways may be targeted for death by anyone in the field if they do not get far enough away, and some people have told me this is not a pro-life issue.

This is my neighborhood, friends, family, and community. I may not know much about the abortion statistics here, but these are things that I see endangering life here, even among those who do not choose it. I vote according to these as well as abortion because I believe that the value of all lives must affect how we vote if every life and every soul is truly important. If someone tells me that life is what is important, then bravo to him or her. If someone tells me that elections are only about abortion, then I think they miss part of the picture.

Sorry if I was on my soap box too long there.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1350669081' post='2494881']


It sure is a hell of a way to get the middle-class and working poor to consistently against their economic interests
[/quote]
Opposing abortion gets them to vote for Obama?

[4588686]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1350670689' post='2494902']
Yeah, just like in-womb persons, mentally handicapped, and others who can't make it to the polling station are glad that others can decide if they live or die.
[/quote]


I didn't realize that mentally handicapped people occupied physical space inside women's bodies.

I will note the irony of your indignity here about those unable to vote having decisions made for them on their behalf given your positive eagerness for individuals who lack ID to be excluded from the voting process

Edited October 20, 2012 by Hasan

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1350717756' post='2495274']



I didn't realize that mentally handicapped people occupied physical space inside women's bodies.

I will note the irony of your indignity here about those unable to vote having decisions made for them on their behalf given your positive eagerness for individuals who lack ID to be excluded from the voting process
[/quote]Please re- read my post and mote the comma, llama.

The irony was intended as pointed sarcasm with underlying accusations of hypocrisy on your part.
My indignation remains uncowed.

[MIKolbe]

stop calling me fat

[Sylvanna Imbris]

Light and Truth—yes, these are all life issues, and I agree with you that we have responsibilities towards others to help them live better lives, particularly in the cases you mentioned (being able to breathe, money for medical expenses, help overcoming addiction, a home and a job, and freedom from enslavement and abuse). However, there seems to me to be a clear difference between a candidate’s stance on abortion and their stance on these other issues. We agree on the principle—life is precious and should be protected—but the methods we use might differ. On the issues you mentioned, I doubt that many people would disagree with you [i]in principle[/i], but I’m sure that many would argue about the best [i]method [/i]of dealing with these issues, and I think that is legitimate. On the abortion issue, we have people who fundamentally disagree on the [i]principle[/i]. Disagreeing about the [i]method[/i] would be debating things like how to help women in crisis pregnancies, how to protect vulnerable women from family members/boyfriends who don’t want them to be pregnant or doctors who want to profit from their distress at being pregnant.

I think neither Biden nor Ryan answered this question well. They both failed on the [i]principle[/i]. They acknowledged that an unborn chid is a person, but Biden refused any protection to that person, and Ryan refused protection to that person if he/she were a result of rape or incest or if that person’s existence endangered his/her mother’s life.

I won’t be voting for either. If I disagree with a candidate’s position in principle, I won’t vote for him/her. If there are several candidates whom I agree with in principle, I’ll chose the best one based on how much I agree with their proposed methods. Unfortunately, I’ve never had the opportunity to choose based on method, only based on principle (and sometimes not even then).

[beatitude]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1350647443' post='2494779']

Jason Evert says there have been studies that have clearly shown having an abortion causes hellish mental effects on the mother, even in cases of rape. In fact, when a study was done on women who had abortions because they were raped, it took them way longer to get over being raped than the mothers who chose to not abort them. Abortion is not a solution, it's a gateway to more problems.
[/quote]

The studies in this area are actually quite contradictory and inconclusive. (I'm a therapist and I'm pretty familiar with the literature.) Jason Evert is cherry-picking, in much the way that abortion rights supporters cherry-pick when they want to show that abortion isn't detrimental to mental health. They both choose the studies that suit them and ignore the others. The fact is that mental health is complex and often there are multiple contributing factors in why someone develops a psychological illness. For this reason, I don't see how there can have been any credible studies showing that abortion causes 'hellish mental effects' even in cases of rape - how is it possible to distinguish which psychological difficulties were caused by the abortion, and which by the rape? I'm certainly not aware of any.

Abortion can be a significant contributing factor in mental distress for some women. [i]But so can carrying a pregnancy to term.[/i] If we used possible mental health problems as a reason not to have abortions, then we would logically have to use post-natal depression and post-natal psychosis as reasons not to have babies. If a woman doesn't want to be pregnant (perhaps because she was raped) then her risk of experiencing psychological problems is high. This is a reality that every committed pro-life person has to face. We do not win this battle by sweeping facts we'd rather not look at under the rug. We have got to engage with these realities honestly and compassionately.

[Groo the Wanderer]

let's see Hasan. to frame it in logic and in your terms...

1. the 'tissue/zygote/embryo' inside the woman possesses a complete DNA sequence
2. that DNA sequence is that of a human being, not any other aminal, hence it is a human 'tissue/zygote/embryo'
3. said DNA sequence does NOT match that of the woman
4. therefore it is NOT part of HER body, it belongs to some other person, namely to the 'tissue/zygote/embryo'
5. ergo, she does NOT have the right to kill that 'tissue/zygote/embryo'
6. as that person to whom the 'tissue/zygote/embryo' belongs does not have a voice, society must speak on that person's behalf
7. since the 'tissue/zygote/embryo' if left unimpeded will develop into a human being by any definition, no matter how loose, and not a liver, a foot , or a pinkie, the 'tissue/zygote/embryo' is actually that person

summary;
1. the life inside a woman is a person
2. being inside that woman does not give her a right to kill it, as it is a separate human life as evidenced by its unique DNA sequence
3. that life cannot speak for itself, so we do.
4. it is our responsibility to save that life if it is in danger.
5. the rights of the mother do not override this, nor do they extend to killing another human being, regardless of age, physical condition, or location

QED

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1350717756' post='2495274']
I didn't realize that mentally handicapped people occupied physical space inside women's bodies.

[/quote]
i think they did at one time.

but they didn't count then...

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Sylvanna Imbris' timestamp='1350754576' post='2495340']
Light and Truth—yes, these are all life issues, and I agree with you that we have responsibilities towards others to help them live better lives, particularly in the cases you mentioned (being able to breathe, money for medical expenses, help overcoming addiction, a home and a job, and freedom from enslavement and abuse). However, there seems to me to be a clear difference between a candidate’s stance on abortion and their stance on these other issues. We agree on the principle—life is precious and should be protected—but the methods we use might differ. On the issues you mentioned, I doubt that many people would disagree with you [i]in principle[/i], but I’m sure that many would argue about the best [i]method [/i]of dealing with these issues, and I think that is legitimate. On the abortion issue, we have people who fundamentally disagree on the [i]principle[/i]. Disagreeing about the [i]method[/i] would be debating things like how to help women in crisis pregnancies, how to protect vulnerable women from family members/boyfriends who don’t want them to be pregnant or doctors who want to profit from their distress at being pregnant.[/QUOTE]
Good explanation. I wonder if speaking of the principal of life being what is most important in those issues who help the pro-life side to seem more in accord and highlight the misguided transition of values from life first to liberty first in the leftist/pro-choice side and cause some to re-think their positions/thinking.

[quote name='Sylvanna Imbris' timestamp='1350754576' post='2495340']I think neither Biden nor Ryan answered this question well. They both failed on the [i]principle[/i]. They acknowledged that an unborn child is a person, but Biden refused any protection to that person, and Ryan refused protection to that person if he/she were a result of rape or incest or if that person’s existence endangered his/her mother’s life.[/QUOTE]
An 11 year old may be able to become pregnant but not have the body shape to safely carry the child to term, for the child's life or the mother's life. Ectopic pregnancies that for some reason are not caught within the first 20 weeks will all but certainly result in death of the mother and consequently the child (unless extra-uterine fetal care has improved enough to keep that kid alive which would still be next to impossible to find in places where such a situation would occur). I have heard of other circumstances but am less familiar with them. If it is a choice between almost certain death for two and saving the life of the mother, plenty of people here and elsewhere may disagree with me.

I think Ryan was at least more accurate than some in office. I got an email from Feinstein or someone's office sounding like it should be hard to believe that rape or incest is a form of conception (after all, just cause a sperm meets an egg and fertalizes it does not mean conception has occurred, right? haha.)

[quote name='Sylvanna Imbris' timestamp='1350754576' post='2495340']I won’t be voting for either. If I disagree with a candidate’s position in principle, I won’t vote for him/her. If there are several candidates whom I agree with in principle, I’ll chose the best one based on how much I agree with their proposed methods. Unfortunately, I’ve never had the opportunity to choose based on method, only based on principle (and sometimes not even then).
[/quote]
Choose the lesser of the two evils. One of the two will make it to office. Please don't let it be the greater of the two.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Light and Truth