50th Anniversary Of Vii

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1350237362' post='2493314']
Voris is simply "razing the bastions" of modernism, liberalism, and progressivism in the Church. It takes bombast to do this because these "bastions" are very strong. Many of you may be too young to know just how long this nonsense has been going on. Many of us who are Voris' age (40's) are sick of waiting for these moderns/progressives/liberals to die and take their heresy with them to the grave (and beyond!) It seems this is the only way we will be rid of them.
[/quote]

Razing or raising? Big difference.

[Nihil Obstat]

Mr. Voris is very passionate and he is not afraid to make himself heard. I really respect that about him. Does he sometimes go too far? Perhaps. But is there anyone here who can honestly say that they have never missed the mark in some criticism or argument? Come on.

He is not perfect, nor is anybody on Youtube, but he is fighting for the same thing we are, with the same struggles and weaknesses that all of us have. I think he deserves greater forbearance than many Catholics seem willing to concede him.

[ACS67]

Razing. That was in quotes for a reason.

[url="http://www.ignatius.com/Products/RB-P/razing-the-bastions.aspx"]http://www.ignatius.com/Products/RB-P/razing-the-bastions.aspx[/url]
[quote]
Von Balthasar's "bastions" are barriers [b]erected over the centuries which separated the laity from the clergy and the Church from the world. He ple[/b]ads for a Church that interprets "the signs of the age," grasps them and answers them, allowing herself to be awakened by the Holy Spirit and by the age "from the bed of historical sleep for the dead of today." The new function of the Church is to be the "yeast of the world"--she must understand herself as the "instrument of the mediation of salvation to the world." Stressing that the hour of the laity is sounding in the Church, von Balthasar makes it clear that the "true program of the Church for today is: the most powerful radiance into the world through the most immediate imitation of Christ."
[/quote]
Hence the demise the priesthood today and the "clericalizing" of the laity.

[Nihil Obstat]

Oh! My mistake. I misread the second half of that sentence. Carry on then. I misread it as something along the lines of "razing the bastions of faith [i]against[/i] liberalism, modernism, etc.". Heh.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Nihil Obstat

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1350244575' post='2493345']
Mr. Voris is very passionate and he is not afraid to make himself heard. I really respect that about him. Does he sometimes go too far? Perhaps. But is there anyone here who can honestly say that they have never missed the mark in some criticism or argument? Come on.

He is not perfect, nor is anybody on Youtube, but he is fighting for the same thing we are, with the same struggles and weaknesses that all of us have. I think he deserves greater forbearance than many Catholics seem willing to concede him.
[/quote]

I agree 110%. There are so many Catholics willing to shoot him out of the sky, but he's the only one willing to evangelize. I don't see these people complaining about his way of evangelizing doing it themselves, so they have no right to complain. If they think their way is better than they can fix the problem by doing it.

[Groo the Wanderer]

VatII and its documents were all fine. The errors lie in the shoddy implementation. We are still trying to get it right.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1350256018' post='2493414']
VatII and its documents were all fine. The errors lie in the shoddy implementation. We are still trying to get it right.
[/quote]
Do you think that the texts themselves are absolutely perfect, pristinely free of the modernist influence that was clearly present during the Council itself?

[Groo the Wanderer]

depends on the translation. perfect? nothing is perfect wrought by human hands. Good think God can work through our imperfections though. the VatII docs are magisterial, hence they are to be relied upon. the smoke of satan was definitely blowing through the halls, yet the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1350254456' post='2493398']

I agree 110%. There are so many Catholics willing to shoot him out of the sky, but [b]he's the only one willing to evangelize.[/b] I don't see these people complaining about his way of evangelizing doing it themselves, so they have no right to complain. If they think their way is better than they can fix the problem by doing it.
[/quote]

Issue with this...He isn't the only one, maybe the only one with the largest mouth....

And from what he presented and how he presented in just those 15 min. are the sort of reasons that I thank God that I was brought in by Him and not by people. Otherwise, people like Mr. Voris would make me leave the Church, because I wouldn't even want to be associated with him.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1350258324' post='2493428']
depends on the translation. perfect? nothing is perfect wrought by human hands. Good think God can work through our imperfections though. the VatII docs are magisterial, hence they are to be relied upon. the smoke of satan was definitely blowing through the halls, yet the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church.
[/quote]
But there have been developments even here in recent years.

Like here we have Cardinal Brandmuller clearly implying that there are distinct, different levels of authority in the different documents.

[indent=1]"There is a huge difference between a great constitution," like the Vatican II constitutions on the church, the liturgy and divine revelation, "and simple declarations," like the Vatican II declarations on Christian education and the mass media. "Strangely enough, the two most controversial documents" for the SSPX -- those on religious freedom [Dignitatis humanae] and on relations with non-Christians [Nostra aetate] -- "do not have a binding doctrinal content, so one can dialogue about them," the cardinal said.[/indent]

It would not really make sense to say that one can dialogue about the documents while still maintaining that the documents themselves are perfect. It stands to reason that if some of them leave room for meaningful dialogue, that there is also room for meaningful correction in future documents and studies.
The Vatican does not, and as far as I know has never said (nor, of course, could it), that every word of every document is completely infallible under magisterial authority.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1350258739' post='2493434']
Issue with this...He isn't the only one, maybe the only one with the largest mouth....

And from what he presented and how he presented in just those 15 min. are the sort of reasons that I thank God that I was brought in by Him and not by people. Otherwise, people like Mr. Voris would make me leave the Church, because I wouldn't even want to be associated with him.
[/quote]

How is this any more charitable than the things Mr. Voris says, with which you take issue?

[Groo the Wanderer]

heck, lets try to implement them correctly first before we begin to dialogue about the nuances.

first up - put the tabernacles back behind the altars where they belong!

Edited October 14, 2012 by Groo the Wanderer

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1350258913' post='2493438']
heck, lets try to implement them correctly first before we begin to dialogue about the nuances.

first up - put the tabernacles back behind the altars where they belong!
[/quote]

I think a proper implementation of the council is hindered by ambiguity within the documents. But at the end of the day it is a chicken and egg thing. There is ambiguity because of modernist influence, and the modernist influence is aided and in some sense justified by the ambiguity. We have to attack modernism root and branch.

But yes, bringing the altar and tabernacle back together, along with the crucifix, would be a very solid start.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1350258855' post='2493436']

How is this any more charitable than the things Mr. Voris says, with which you take issue?
[/quote]

I am at the very least pointing out the fact that his almost fundamentalist(used loosely here) attitude/diction does just about as much damage to the Church and Her mission as the 'liberalism' & 'modernism' that can at times overpower the Church.

And otherwise, people like Mr. Voris are a rather large pet peeve of mine. Sorry, if I offended in my reprimand of him.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1350258739' post='2493434']
Issue with this...He isn't the only one, maybe the only one with the largest mouth....

And from what he presented and how he presented in just those 15 min. are the sort of reasons that I thank God that I was brought in by Him and not by people. Otherwise, people like Mr. Voris would make me leave the Church, because I wouldn't even want to be associated with him.
[/quote]

Well, as you did with saying "Nobody" listened to him, I said "Nobody" does it but him. I mean nobody that complains about him is doing it themselves. Don't like his way of preaching? Take a swing at it. People like his way of preaching. They are inspired by it. Just because you don't doesn't mean other people don't too. Everyone is different with a different personality, and some go well together just as others clash. Yours clashes with his, and that's fine. That doesn't mean you have to complain about him and the great work he does. He has brought possibly thousands to the Faith. That's a lot more than I can say about myself whether I like his preaching or not. Keep in mind Saint Padre Pio was ridiculed on a daily basis for his way of preaching. What did it consist of? Yelling at people in the confessional, slapping them, kicking them, I hear he even threw people across the room. That's way more extreme than Michael Voris.