Day Of The Girl

[arfink]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1349994174' post='2492480']
The field of reading is dominated by men.
[/quote]

Yup. You know I'm a very dominant reader.

I also excel at knitting.

[PhuturePriest]

I'm the best dang reader in the West, thank you.

[Era Might]

"Day of the Girl"? Did this get started in Spain? That's certainly an awkard English phrasing. Sounds ok in Spanish "dia de la nina" but in English it's just awkard. It's "Mother's Day" and "Father's Day" not "Day of the Mother."

[MIKolbe]

Who knows why chicks do these things..

[sixpence]

i feel very strongly about this... strongly ambivalent

[Groo the Wanderer]

chicks are the highest form of creation

and they are great at making guys sammiches

[MissScripture]

I always get the feeling from these sorts of things that it is setting it up to be an "us versus them" mentality, which is not really helpful to anyone. Also, the fact that it's associated with the UN doesn't exactly leave me feeling hopeful, but that's just me. To be fair, I've only given the website a cursory glance, so I could be missing key points, but it mostly just makes me roll my eyes.

[Papist]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1349983712' post='2492366']
Are you arguing there are no gender baised stereotypes? If so, then yes, this is unneeded.

Are you arguing there are no injustices based on gender? If so, then yes, this is unneeded.

Are you arguing near perfect equity (in society) between both genders? If so, then yes, this is unneeded.

Are you arguing that societal pressures cannot effect the personal conscieneness of worth, as it concerns the above 3? If so, then yes, this is unneeded.

Now granted, I have not read the whole site...but a snippet is...

Other than the really lame use of "herstory", does this really seem like an unbalanced approach?

Yeah, it's a .little "rah-rah".. but so what? I know phools who get all 'cheerleader-y' about beer.

I do agree, however, about guys who would be constantly seen as dolts; as you also elluded to...that is just as silly as guys doing the same...the ladies don't corner this market....




Are you over-reacting?

yeah, a bit...

oh, and hey.. go make me a sammich, son.
[/quote]
Not arguing gender bias. Not arguing any bias of any kind. There is bias in all demographics. I fail to see the how this superficial build-up of a girls self-esteem impacts the gender bias problems, which was my point to Missy.

[Papist]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1349994174' post='2492480']
The field of reading is dominated by men.
[/quote]
I don't know, but my wife said she read that somewhere.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1350001140' post='2492532']
Not arguing gender bias. Not arguing any bias of any kind. There is bias in all demographics. I fail to see the how this superficial build-up of a girls self-esteem impacts the gender bias problems, which was my point to Missy.
[/quote]

Because the media spends most of its time tearing down a girl's self esteem. You're not sexy enough. You're not skinny enough. You're not tan enough. You're not voluptuous enough. You're not feminine enough. You're not strong enough. Your only worthy aspect is your body, and we're going to use it to sell beer and websites to the boys. Building up a girl's self-esteem helps them fight against these messages. Plus the more men see the message that women aren't meat for consumption, the more ground we gain in trying to change society's mindset when it comes to gender dynamics and expectations.

I won't deny that men are STARTING to get some kind of short end of a stick in the media. There's something wrong with that, and you're right in trying to fight against it. But there's something wrong when your first instinct to anything that promotes women is to think it's inherently an attack on men.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1350020456' post='2492658']

Because the media spends most of its time tearing down a girl's self esteem. You're not sexy enough. You're not skinny enough. You're not tan enough. You're not voluptuous enough. You're not feminine enough. You're not strong enough. Your only worthy aspect is your body, and we're going to use it to sell beer and websites to the boys. Building up a girl's self-esteem helps them fight against these messages. Plus the more men see the message that women aren't meat for consumption, the more ground we gain in trying to change society's mindset when it comes to gender dynamics and expectations.

I won't deny that men are STARTING to get some kind of short end of a stick in the media. There's something wrong with that, and you're right in trying to fight against it. But there's something wrong when your first instinct to anything that promotes women is to think it's inherently an attack on men.
[/quote]

I completely agree with everything you said, but I wanted to check one thing. You said "STARTING to get some kind of short end of a stick in the media." What is your definition of "starting"? Because male discrimination has been going on since the escalation of feminazis, which has been a heck of a long time.

I have no problem with promoting women. But I don't see why in these campaigns we can't talk about both men and women equally. I think if men acted the way they should, there would be no female discrimination. So wouldn't it make sense to pump men up to where we are supposed to be as well? Just saying "Women are amesome and smart and capable" just doesn't sound as effective to me as saying "Both men and women are amesome and smart and capable. They are both sons and daughters of God and it is time we treated each other in this light and strove to improve ourselves in order to fulfill this honor." I don't know, it just seems to me that seventy years of pumping women up as equal (And in some cases superior) hasn't worked, so we might as well try to pump both up. Men have terrible self-esteem as well and we never stop to think about how much men doubt themselves. Men have been told since they were young that they're just a bunch of hormonal sex-crazed fiends and this is all they will ever amount to. This is just as tragic as telling women that men are a bunch of hormonal sex-crazed fiends and it is their job to be the tool that helps them accomplish their goal of sex.

[beatitude]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1350021673' post='2492663']

I completely agree with everything you said, but I wanted to check one thing. You said "STARTING to get some kind of short end of a stick in the media." What is your definition of "starting"? Because male discrimination has been going on since the escalation of feminazis, which has been a heck of a long time.[/quote]

[img]http://www.xyonline.net/sites/default/files/images/Feminazi.preview.jpg[/img]

Any talk about men facing 'discrimination' in a country where political and public life is completely dominated by men shows that you have a very limited understanding of what actual discrimination entails. This is similar to when white people start complaining, "A black person once said something mean to me on a bus, that's reverse racism!" Discrimination is about power, and contrary to popular belief, there is no powerful cabal of 'feminazis' conspiring to keep men under their jackboots. Interestingly, I often hear this accusation from well-off men with their own TV shows. The term 'feminazi' was itself coined as a way of stigmatising women who got too mouthy, asked for too much, and weren't proper ladies. Now we are in a position where we see women bending over backwards to try and demonstrate to men that while they may talk about equal pay for equal work once in a while, they aren't like [i]that[/i]. I don't bother when I get called feminazi any more; I've no interest in being the good girl who gets misogynistic approval.

[quote]Men have terrible self-esteem as well and we never stop to think about how much men doubt themselves. Men have been told since they were young that they're just a bunch of hormonal sex-crazed fiends and this is all they will ever amount to. This is just as tragic as telling women that men are a bunch of hormonal sex-crazed fiends and it is their job to be the tool that helps them accomplish their goal of sex.
[/quote]

The idea of men being out of control when it comes to sex is often used as a justification for the objectification and even the rape of women. "Men can't help it, it's just the way they are, why do women wear short skirts if they aren't asking to be whistled at/groped/attacked..." You yourself have bought into and promoted similar attitudes on this phorum, with the idea that male and female college students shouldn't be housemates because of some special male difficulty in resisting temptation. Of course such attitudes harm men too. Patriarchy harms everyone, which is why men are not pitted against women in most feminist thought (as you'll find out if you read the feminist classics). But neither does feminist thought deny that women have been the real sufferers in this. That was true a hundred years ago and it remains true now. There are specific problems facing women as a result of misogyny (sex-selective abortion, restricted access to education, a gender pay gap, a terrifyingly low rape conviction rate, discrimination in the job market...) that men simply do not face, which is why programs such as 'Day of the Girl' exist. (By the way, this program is particularly focused on the role of women's education as a means of eradicating poverty in the so-called developing world.) You may dispute whether such programs are the best way to address such problems, but the problems themselves are real, and solving them takes more than throwing a few self-esteem workshops. It's telling that the first thing you think about when you look at an initiative designed to tackle such problems is male self-esteem.

[Papist]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1350020456' post='2492658']

Because the media spends most of its time tearing down a girl's self esteem. You're not sexy enough. You're not skinny enough. You're not tan enough. You're not voluptuous enough. You're not feminine enough. You're not strong enough. Your only worthy aspect is your body, and we're going to use it to sell beer and websites to the boys. Building up a girl's self-esteem helps them fight against these messages. Plus the more men see the message that women aren't meat for consumption, the more ground we gain in trying to change society's mindset when it comes to gender dynamics and expectations.

I won't deny that men are STARTING to get some kind of short end of a stick in the media. There's something wrong with that, and you're right in trying to fight against it. But there's something wrong when your first instinct to anything that promotes women is to think it's inherently an attack on men.
[/quote]
Pretty women got treated better than ugly women long before the media's doing. My OP is not about gender bias or the mistreatment of girls/women. It is that all the self-esteemism does girls a disservice when it makes their value based on achievements and accomplishments, of which the people pushing these self esteem programs determine these achievements and accomplishments. My daughters(and my son too) have great value regardless if they are good at sports, good in math, etc.

I have nothing against such things to build community and solidarity between girls. I will seek out good ones for my children to participate in. I don't like ones, such as this day of the girl, that are negative in theme with the injustice, inequality, etc. One movement I do believe is doing it right for girls is Pure Fashion, [url="http://www.purefashion.com/"]http://www.purefashion.com/[/url]

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1350042160' post='2492716']
[b]Pretty women got treated better than ugly women long before the media's doing.[/b] My OP is not about gender bias or the mistreatment of girls/women. It is that all the self-esteemism [b]does girls a disservice when it makes their value based on achievements and accomplishments,[/b] of which the people pushing these self esteem programs determine these achievements and accomplishments. My daughters(and my son too) have great value regardless if they are good at sports, good in math, etc.

I have nothing against such things to build community and solidarity between girls. I will seek out good ones for my children to participate in. I don't like ones, such as this day of the girl, that are negative in theme with the injustice, inequality, etc. One movement [b]I do believe is doing it right for girls is Pure Fashion[/b], [url="http://www.purefashion.com/"]http://www.purefashion.com/[/url]
[/quote]

Are you kidding me?

You are literally saying that it is better for a woman to take pride in how she displays her body than her other achievements or accomplishments. That not only should we not challenge society when it dictates the worth of a woman based on a standard of desirability, but that we, as Catholic Christians, should embrace this standard and promote it to our children.

Our inherent value as human beings comes from God. But what gives you value in your life? Meditating on the idea that your worth comes from God? Or pursuing what ever God's call is in your life, and making the best use of the talents that He has given you? Maybe a combination of the two?

When we tell girls that it is better to take pride in their accomplishments than how they look, we tell them that it is better to take pride in using well the talents God has given them instead of whatever society's arbitrary standard of beauty is. Women do not become saints by looking pretty. They become saints by using their talents, cultivating their virtues, and doing things that contribute to the building up of the Kingdom.

NB: Now, that's not to say that something like Pure Fashion isn't good, because we desperately need to fight against sexualization of girls and promote modesty in fashion. But women also have great value even if they don't look pretty.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1350021673' post='2492663']

I completely agree with everything you said, but I wanted to check one thing. You said "STARTING to get some kind of short end of a stick in the media." What is your definition of "starting"? Because male discrimination has been going on since the escalation of feminazis, which has been a heck of a long time.

I have no problem with promoting women. But I don't see why in these campaigns we can't talk about both men and women equally. I think if men acted the way they should, there would be no female discrimination. So wouldn't it make sense to pump men up to where we are supposed to be as well? Just saying "Women are amesome and smart and capable" just doesn't sound as effective to me as saying "Both men and women are amesome and smart and capable. They are both sons and daughters of God and it is time we treated each other in this light and strove to improve ourselves in order to fulfill this honor." I don't know, it just seems to me that seventy years of pumping women up as equal (And in some cases superior) hasn't worked, so we might as well try to pump both up. Men have terrible self-esteem as well and we never stop to think about how much men doubt themselves. Men have been told since they were young that they're just a bunch of hormonal sex-crazed fiends and this is all they will ever amount to. This is just as tragic as telling women that men are a bunch of hormonal sex-crazed fiends and it is their job to be the tool that helps them accomplish their goal of sex.
[/quote]

Men and women are equal.

But think about your reaction here. This movement is about promoting education for girls, and makes no mention of promoting men. And yet because it doesn't talk about men, you see it as a threat, as discrimination. WHY? Because you're not being represented? Because it's decided to focus on women and not men?

Fact is, this movement isn't about you. And that's okay. Start your own movement to improve reading comprehension scores among school-aged boys. Fight gang activity. Fight "dopey dad" stereotypes in the media. But don't make a woman's movement about you.