Give Me A Reason Why Catholicism Is Preferable To Orthodoxy...

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1350002403' post='2492541']Unity and authority[/quote]Unity of faith-and faith in our savior rather than a man who brings faith in our savior-aka the Pope, equality of authority in leadership under the leadership of Christ (more of a miracle than relying on one person [the Pope]), and we are not divided by who is under our last church council or our form of creed! Represent, mah Eastern peeps (aka Byz, and whoever else.)!

A case and point from above, along with non-Vat. 2 types:
[quote name='Byzantine' timestamp='1350836863' post='2495664']Why we can not haz recognition of our existence! WE IZ HERE AND WE NO HAZ FILIOQUE IN CREED! Not that we deny it of course.[/quote]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1350016648' post='2492618']Rome.[/quote]Rome vs. Moscow, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria, etc.

[quote name='the171' timestamp='1350071807' post='2492862']Variety.[/quote]Yes, we have that.

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1350073796' post='2492870']Fullness of truth and tradition.[/quote]Yes, this is the [i]Orthodox[/i] way.

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1350854762' post='2495732']
The Pope. And more than that, the unity in general. There are a ton of Rites in the Catholic Church, the most prevalently represented on this board being the Roman Rite. We also have the Byzantine Rite on PM, I believe some are interested in the Maronite Rite, etc. When one looks at the Orthodox churches, and this is merely my opinion as I converted to Catholicism, they are huge on a nationalistic identity. The Greek Orthodox. The Russian Orthodox. The Ukrainian Orthodox. Etc. Sure, they all get along well enough, but each is a separate church in and of itself, not linked by that one leading Bishop; even the Patriarchs are "first among equals".[/QUOTE]

Melkite (Greek), Armenian... "The Maronite Church is divided into nine dioceses:" ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09683c.htm"]http://www.newadvent...then/09683c.htm[/url]) Interesting it is divided into churches that are in union with Rome and thus each other...

Russian, Antiochian, Greek, Orthodox Church of America... Interesting that they are divided into churches that are in union with each other...

In the Oriental Orthodox churches, there is a first among equals, and then the others, and the bishops tend to their own group, like the Armenian Catholic biship, but in enough unity to not need a formal Pope like the Catholic church.

Of course if it is all about being united under one and only one leader who is a person here on earth, we could always explore the Antiochian Church of the East's structure. That should have enough unity to prove it's truth, right? If love is the goal, then we did not have any crusades. We were martyrs more than crusaders.

And our services are not as stark as Roman Rite has been in my experience.

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1352756851' post='2508741']I followed Jesus and he led me to the Roman Catholic Church![/quote]I followed Jesus, and He led me to Orthodoxy.

[quote name='add' timestamp='1350855752' post='2495738']Cus, Catholics are happier ( everybody knows that)[/quote]Emotions deceive: real truth is eternal.

At least you can still marry an atheist/other religion who will help raise your kids even if it is discouraged, and Protestants are a group outside of your that considers your baptism to be good enough (unless they are Baptists/believer's baptism people), and you got to have a counter reformation.

Query: Do your saints still not decompose?

Edited November 14, 2012 by Light and Truth

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Light and Truth' timestamp='1352877332' post='2509773']
[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1352756851' post='2508741']
I followed Jesus and he led me to the Roman Catholic Church!
[/quote]

I followed Jesus, and He led me to Orthodoxy.


[/quote]
If there had been no Roman Catholic Church in my town and an Orthodox Church instead. Where do you suppose God would have led me? Actually if you want to know where God wants to lead people it would be to unity!

Edited November 14, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1352879603' post='2509779']Actually if you want to know where God wants to lead people it would be to unity!
[/quote]
It's to Christ, whatever that takes, to save their souls.

[emmaberry101]

[color=#222222][font='Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1352879603' post='2509779']
Actually if you want to know where God wants to lead people it would be to unity!
[/quote][/background][/size][/font][/color]
[quote name='Light and Truth' timestamp='1352881553' post='2509785']
It's to Christ, whatever that takes, to save their souls.
[/quote]

John 17:
"[b][sup]11 [/sup][/b]I am no longer in the world; and [i]yet[/i] they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, [i]the name[/i] which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are."
"[sup]20 [/sup]“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; [sup]21 [/sup]that they may all be one; even as You, Father, [i]are[/i] in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+17&version=NASB#fen-NASB-26781f"]f[/url]][/sup]believe that You sent Me."
"[sup]22 [/sup]The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; [sup]23 [/sup]I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+17&version=NASB#fen-NASB-26783g"]g[/url]][/sup]in unity, so that the world may [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+17&version=NASB#fen-NASB-26783h"]h[/url]][/sup]know that You sent Me, andloved them, even as You have loved Me."

It is important that the Church be united as one in perfect unity just as the Father and Son (and Holy Spirit) are one. Any argument that 'the faith [i]is[/i] one because we all believe in Christ' is hogwash. That may fit some far-fetched notion of 'unity' but it is nowhere near the unity Christ pleas for in John 17.

The problem here is not that you are Orthodox (as I am assuming from your posts) but that you don't seem to value or understand the importance of the unified Church. This is certainly not the spirit of Christ as He prayed this prayer in the garden.. Imagine, His last request to the Father for us is that we would remain one, not only for His sake but for ours ("so that they might know that You love them".."so that they might have joy") and here we are content, even enjoying ourselves out of some sense of "We're right, they're wrong!", in this broken mess? It's tragic.

Edited November 14, 2012 by emmaberry101

[Mark of the Cross]

[img]http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss282/mho_owen/sad.jpg[/img]

[Papist]

[quote name='Light and Truth' timestamp='1352877332' post='2509773']
Unity of faith-and faith in our savior rather than a man who brings faith in our savior-aka the Pope, equality of authority in leadership under the leadership of Christ (more of a miracle than relying on one person [the Pope]), and we are not divided by who is under our last church council or our form of creed! Represent, mah Eastern peeps (aka Byz, and whoever else.)!
[/quote]
We do rely on one person, Jesus Christ. Christ founded a Church, a visible Church, to which Christ is the head. However, Christ knew He was leaving to be with His Father. Before He Ascended, Christ gave authority to Peter to represent Him here in this world, until His glorious return. Matthew 16:13-20, John 21:14-19

[vee]

To belong to the Catholic Church founded by Christ on Peter one must be in union with Rome.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1352898397' post='2509820']
To belong to the Catholic Church founded by Christ on Peter one must be in union with Rome.
[/quote]
But the Roman Catholic Church IS in communion with the catholic Church founded by Christ!

[i]John 10:16 And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd. [/i]

Christ will even redeem the Church that is riddled with the grave error of paedophilia cover ups and the grave sins committed through those attempts. But through its faithful followers and the power of Christ it will succeed in its purpose.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='emmaberry101' timestamp='1352885667' post='2509794']John 17:
"11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are."
"20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may [f]believe that You sent Me."
"22 The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected [g]in unity, so that the world may [h]know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me."

It is important that the Church be united as one in perfect unity just as the Father and Son (and Holy Spirit) are one. Any argument that 'the faith is one because we all believe in Christ' is hogwash. That may fit some far-fetched notion of 'unity' but it is nowhere near the unity Christ pleas for in John 17.

The problem here is not that you are Orthodox (as I am assuming from your posts) but that you don't seem to value or understand the importance of the unified Church. This is certainly not the spirit of Christ as He prayed this prayer in the garden.. Imagine, His last request to the Father for us is that we would remain one, not only for His sake but for ours ("so that they might know that You love them".."so that they might have joy") and here we are content, even enjoying ourselves out of some sense of We're right, they're wrong!", in this broken mess? It's tragic. [/quote]
Ephesians 4:

4 One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling.
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.

The Orthodox church does bring unity to its members in Christ. We cannot value unity over truth. Unity that puts the Church over the Savior is wrong. Unity that sacrifices the saving truth of Christ wrong. Saying that baptism into a church makes one united to it when one does not hold fast to the truth of Christ and the Church's teachings is not unity with the Church and it's people. The must fundamental truth of all real churches is Christ, not unity. Christ is the reason for our hope and our salvation. Every church that does not come back to Him most fundamentally misses the point of the Gospel and is not a part of the body of Christ. It is love the comes from who our Lord is that shows us how to truly love. And they will know we are Christians by our love, and it is that love that holds a community together in tough times. It is that truth that binds them.

1 Cor. 10:17 For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread.
Not all who claim to be in the body really are and partake. Not all the linger in the flock are sheep. We must not only be sheep, but sheep that know our shepherd.

And yes, I am Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, a member of the Armenian Apostolic Church which is just as much a part of the Oriental Orthodox church as the Uniate churches are members of the Catholic church.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Light and Truth

[emmaberry101]

[quote name='Light and Truth' timestamp='1352930541' post='2510035']
We cannot value unity over truth. Unity that puts the Church over the
Savior is wrong. [/quote]
Where does it say this in the Bible?

[quote name='Light and Truth' timestamp='1352930541' post='2510035']
Unity that puts the Church over the Savior is wrong. [/quote]
So you are not mainstream Orthodox, but one that believes that the Catholic Church puts itself over Christ? This is not mainstream Orthodox thought.

[Mark of the Cross]

Light and truth is correct. Many Catholics place the Catholic Church over Christ. The Church that Christ founded is [b]Christianity.[/b] If we are going to argue that a particular denomination is the true Church because it was first, then Judaism is the true church. Jesus religion is a doctrine of Christianity that he taught and he said he would build that on Peter. But what he meant was all those who taught his doctrine are the successors of Peter. The Roman Church now acknowledges that all those who live a Christian life but in ignorance of Jesus through not being taught or by being deceived are members of the catholic Church. The other sheep not of this fold even include other religions and non religions. Cardinal George Pell stated on Q&A that atheists have the possibility of salvation. Do you really think the God of love will reject one who loves him in their heart but rejects him in mind due to disinformation/brain washing ?

[Nihil Obstat]

[b] 152. Which is the one true Church established by Christ?[/b]

The one true Church established by Christ is the Catholic Church.
[i]And other sheep I have that are not of this fold. Them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd. (John 10:16)[/i]
[b] 153. How do we know that the Catholic Church is the one true Church established by Christ?[/b]

We know that the Catholic Church is the one true Church established by Christ because it alone has the marks of the true Church.
[i]Holy Father, keep in thy name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we also are. (John 17:11)[/i]
[b] 154. What do we mean by the marks of the Church?[/b]

By the marks of the Church we mean certain clear signs by which all men can recognize it as the true Church founded by Jesus Christ.
[b] 155. What are the chief marks of the Church?[/b]

The chief marks of the Church are four: It is one, holy, catholic or universal, and apostolic.
[b] 156. Why is the Catholic Church one?[/b]

The Catholic Church is one because all its members, according to the will of Christ, profess the same faith, have the same sacrifice and sacraments, and are united under one and the same visible head, the Pope.
[i]Because the bread is one, we though many, are one body, all of us who partake of the one bread. (I Corinthians 10:17)[/i]
[b] 157. Why is the Catholic Church holy?[/b]

The Catholic Church is holy because it was founded by Jesus Christ, who is all-holy, and because it teaches, according to the will of Christ, holy doctrines, and provides the means of leading a holy life, thereby giving holy members to every age.
[i]A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them. (Matthew 7:17-20)[/i]
[b] 158. Why is the Catholic Church catholic or universal?[/b]

The Catholic Church is catholic or universal because, destined to last for all time, it never fails to fulfill the divine commandment to teach all nations all the truths revealed by God.
[i]And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a witness to all nations. (Matthew 24:14)[/i]
[b] 159. Why is the Catholic Church apostolic?[/b]

The Catholic Church is apostolic because it was founded by Christ on the apostles and, according to His divine will, has always been governed by their lawful successors.
[i]And I say to thee, thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)[/i]
[b] 160. How do we know that no other church but the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ?[/b]

We know that no other church but the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ because no other church has these four marks.
[b] 161. What are the chief attributes of the Catholic Church?[/b]

The chief attributes of the Catholic Church are authority, infallibility, and indefectibility. They are called attributes because they are qualities perfecting the nature of the Church.
[b] 162. What is meant by the authority of the Catholic Church?[/b]

By the authority of the Catholic Church is meant that the Pope and the bishops, as the lawful successors of the apostles, have power from Christ Himself to teach, to sanctify, and to govern the faithful in spiritual matters.
[i]On behalf of Christ, therefore, we are acting as ambassadors, God, as it were, appealing through us. (II Corinthians 5:20)[/i]
[b] 163. What is meant by the infallibility of the Catholic Church?[/b]

By the infallibility of the Catholic Church is meant that the Church, by the special assistance of the Holy Ghost, cannot err when it teaches or believes a doctrine of faith or morals.
[i]But the Advocate, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your mind whatever I have said to you. (John 14:26)[/i]
[b] 164. When does the Church teach infallibly?[/b]

The Church teaches infallibly when it defines, through the Pope alone, as the teacher of all Christians, or through the Pope and the bishops, a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by all the faithful.
[b] 165. What is meant by the indefectibility of the Catholic Church?[/b]

By the indefectibility of the Catholic Church is meant that the Church, as Christ founded it, will last until the end of time.
[i]And, behold, I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. (Matthew 28:20)[/i]
[b] 166. Are all obliged to belong to the Catholic Church in order to be saved?[/b]

All are obliged to belong to the Catholic Church in order to be saved.
[i]Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." (John 14:6)[/i]
[b] 167. What do we mean when we say, "Outside the Church there is no salvation?"[/b]

When we say, "Outside the Church there is no salvation," we mean that Christ made the Catholic Church a necessary means of salvation and commanded all to enter it, so that a person must be connected with the Church in some way to be saved.
[b] 168. How can persons who are not members of the Catholic Church be saved?[/b]

Persons who are not members of the Catholic Church can be saved if, through no fault of their own, they do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church, but they love God and try to do His will, for in this way they are connected with the Church by desire.
[b] 169. Why is the Catholic Church called the Mystical Body of Christ?[/b]

The Catholic Church is called the Mystical Body of Christ because its members are united by supernatural bonds with one another and with Christ, their Head, thus resembling the members and head of the living human body.
[i]Again, he is the head of his body, the Church. (Colossians 1:18)[/i]
[b] 169a. What conditions are necessary in order that a person be a member of the Mystical Body in the full sense?[/b]

In order that a person be a member of the Mystical Body in the full sense, it is necessary that he be baptized, that he profess the Catholic faith, and that he neither separate himself from the Mystical Body nor be excluded by lawful authority.
[i]And if he refuses to hear them, appeal to the Church, but if he refuses to hear even the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican. (Matthew 18:17)[/i]
[b] 169b. How does a baptized person separate himself from full incorporation in the Mystical Body?[/b]

A baptized person separates himself from full incorporation in the Mystical Body by open and deliberate heresy, apostasy or schism.
[b] 169c. How does a baptized person separate himself from full incorporation in the Mystical Body by heresy?[/b]

A baptized person separates himself from full incorporation in the Mystical Body by heresy when he openly rejects or doubts some doctrine proposed by the Catholic Church as a truth of divine-Catholic faith, though still professing himself a Christian.
[b] 169d. When does a baptized person separate himself from full incorporation in the Mystical Body by apostasy?[/b]

A baptized person separates himself from full incorporation in the Mystical Body by apostasy when he openly rejects the entire Christian faith.
[b] 169e. When does a baptized person separate himself from full incorporation in the Mystical Body by schism?[/b]

A baptized person separates himself from full incorporation in the Mystical Body by schism when he openly refuses obedience to the lawful authorities of the Church, particularly to the Pope.
[b] 169f. When is a baptized person separated from full incorporation in the Mystical Body by lawful authority?[/b]

A baptized person is separated from full incorporation in the Mystical Body by lawful authority when he incurs one of the more severe forms of excommunication.

[Mark of the Cross]

[img]http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss282/mho_owen/SC20121115-084545.jpg[/img]

I sense a flame war, so I'm not going to discuss an empty page.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Mark of the Cross]

Romans 10
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[b]17 But it is in that way [url="http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=4554"]faith[/url] comes, from hearing, and that means hearing the word of Christ.[/b]

Edited November 14, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Selah]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1352933673' post='2510069']
[img]http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss282/mho_owen/SC20121115-084545.jpg[/img]

I sense a flame war, so I'm not going to discuss an empty page.
[/quote]

LOL

I read that in my head I went, "1,2,3,4, I declare a flame war!"

Also, Orthodoxy kicks butt.

*exits thread*