Political Question For Catholics.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Dust's Sister' timestamp='1349329414' post='2489845']
[color=#333333][font=lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif][size=3]I know we (as Catholics) are suppose to support the candidate who is Pro-life. But there are so many democrats on my facebook, that I am afraid to say anything about Obama killing millions of babies. What exactly does it mean to be republican, and what exactly does it mean to be democrat? - Help me out here. Some Catholic defense on Pro-Life would be good, but would that be enough to win a political debate? And what does it mean when they say that Romney is going to tax the middle class people MORE? and Richer people less? What does that mean? There is also a person on my facebook commenting on "The poorest people are supporting "This guy" meaning Romney... and they are basically saying I'm retarded for supporting him. I so want to[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#333333][font=lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif][size=3]say.. Well I don't want to support a killer. - But in their defense they will come up with many many many other arguments to help support Obama. I also have a Catholic friend who says they will always vote Democrat because that is who they are. Are they sinning because they are voting against pro-life? - And what if they do not know/or feel like they are sinning? - And what about the argument of.. "Well how can you be pro-life, when you are against abortion, but you are FOR not helping the poor?" They are thinking that Romney will do nothing for the poor... but Obama will.... What does that mean ? - to me it means that he will just make it easier to getting foodstamps and health insurance...... But will it help the poor get off their feet and get a job????? - Just my two cents.[/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]
Romneycare pays for abortions.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1349370440' post='2489955']
So what is the moral choice to make?
[/quote]

you're a smart guy..

do some research..

your soul is worth it, dontch think?

[Dust's Sister]

Thanks for your opinions guys, I really don't know what to say yet.

[Basilisa Marie]

Well, obviously Obama is pro-choice and basically told Catholic organizations to take a hike with the HHS mandate, so he's out. Romney may be pro-life, but I'm skeptical as to whether or not he's actually going to do anything about it (defund Planned Parenthood? Maybe? And...what else?), and I don't think this economic policies are good for our country. I don't think they line up with Catholic Social Teaching.

The problem I have with screening candidates solely based on being pro-life is that it pretty much gives them a license to do WHATEVER else they want, regardless of whether it'll be good for our country, just as long as they pay lip service to the pro-life cause. They basically hold our votes hostage, and I can't stand that.

So what's moral? It seems to me that you basically have two options. You see your vote as going toward one of two people, and choose the one who is the lesser of two evils. I'd say that's Romney, in that we [i]know [/i]that as president Obama has given a giant "up yours" to Catholics, pro-lifers, etc, while we don't know what's actually going to happen if Romney becomes president. Or, you can "throw away your vote" by using it to vote for a third party candidate, and express your frustration with the two-party system. Personally I don't think I can rationalize a vote FOR Romney, even if it is against Obama, so I might end up voting third party.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Basilisa Marie

[Papist]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1349371294' post='2489959']

you're a smart guy..

do some research..

your soul is worth it, dontch think?
[/quote]
Nice out.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1349371780' post='2489965']
Well, obviously Obama is pro-choice and basically told Catholic organizations to take a hike with the HHS mandate, so he's out. Romney may be pro-life, but I'm skeptical as to whether or not he's actually going to do anything about it (defund Planned Parenthood? Maybe? And...what else?), and I don't think this economic policies are good for our country. I don't think they line up with Catholic Social Teaching.

The problem I have with screening candidates solely based on being pro-life is that it pretty much gives them a license to do WHATEVER else they want, regardless of whether it'll be good for our country, just as long as they pay lip service to the pro-life cause. They basically hold our votes hostage, and I can't stand that.

So what's moral? It seems to me that you basically have two options. You see your vote as going toward one of two people, and choose the one who is the lesser of two evils. I'd say that's Romney, in that we [i]know [/i]that as president Obama has given a giant "up yours" to Catholics, pro-lifers, etc, while we don't know what's actually going to happen if Romney becomes president. Or, you can "throw away your vote" by using it to vote for a third party candidate, and express your frustration with the two-party system. Personally I don't think I can rationalize a vote FOR Romney, even if it is against Obama, so I might end up voting third party.
[/quote]


I don't like either candidate ... and honestly I don't know if the lesser of two evils is Romney. I haven't made my decision, but I may just flip a coin on this one.

I was out of the country during the last elections, and felt horrible that I couldn't place a vote, so I have to vote this time. Whoever I vote for, my conscience is clear in that I voted for who I could morally vote for. I refuse though to simply say that because a candidate is prochoice and after analyzing all factors I choose a prochoice candidate that I am in "mortal sin", especially since I am not specifically voting for a candidate because he is prochoice. I am also not saying that I will vote for Obama, or that I will vote for Romney. I honestly haven't decided yet, but I won't let a single issue make the vote decision for me.

Now ... if I was choosing a candidate because he is prochoice then definitely you are talking about something very different, you are then talking about believing in something that goes against Catholic belief. *THEN* I would be voting myself into mortal sin.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1349371780' post='2489965']
Well, obviously Obama is pro-choice and basically told Catholic organizations to take a hike with the HHS mandate, so he's out. Romney may be pro-life, but I'm skeptical as to whether or not he's actually going to do anything about it (defund Planned Parenthood? Maybe? And...what else?), and I don't think this economic policies are good for our country. I don't think they line up with Catholic Social Teaching.
[/quote]

Presidents will never do anything and probably can't do anything to [i]stop[/i] abortion on demand. That is our job as Catholic Christians to evangelize our nation and teach the evil of abortion. On the other hand a president can sure do everything in his power to boost the abortion industry and force us to pay for it.

Obama will do everythign he can in his power (and he has) to propagate planned parenthood and abortion on demand here in our country as well as throughout the world. Will Romney do that? I hope not. Obama is saying "up yours" to the church. Will Romney do that? I doubt it. AS far as social justice issues, where has Obama helped the poor? Enslaving the poor and making them dependent on government is not social justice..its socialism. Jesus said, "the poor you will always have with you." Again, this is our job as Catholic Christians to help the poor, not the government....

I am personal friends with several religious. All of them, priests, brothers, sisters and nuns are voting for Romney. Are they happy with that decision? Probably not. But obviously, its not a danger to the soul to vote for the lesser evil. If your conscience doesn't allow it, don't do it, but I think my conscience will bother me more if I help Obama win. I think we need to see that an Obama second term is the worst thing that can happen to our church and our country. We must do all we can to get him out of power.

We also need to become more actively engaged in holding our politicians accountable for their evil policies. Get involved in the grassroots level to stop these evil policies and be a voice against them. St. Catherine of Sienna said, "it is silence that kills the world." Once Mitt is elected, we need to hold him accountable at every turn (i'm sure the media will...)

Edited October 4, 2012 by dominicansoul

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1349372221' post='2489968']
Nice out.
[/quote]
Nice out.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1349371780' post='2489965']
Well, obviously Obama is pro-choice and basically told Catholic organizations to take a hike with the HHS mandate, so he's out. Romney may be pro-life, but I'm skeptical as to whether or not he's actually going to do anything about it (defund Planned Parenthood? Maybe? And...what else?), and I don't think this economic policies are good for our country. I don't think they line up with Catholic Social Teaching.

The problem I have with screening candidates solely based on being pro-life is that it pretty much gives them a license to do WHATEVER else they want, regardless of whether it'll be good for our country, just as long as they pay lip service to the pro-life cause. They basically hold our votes hostage, and I can't stand that.

So what's moral? It seems to me that you basically have two options. You see your vote as going toward one of two people, and choose the one who is the lesser of two evils. I'd say that's Romney, in that we [i]know [/i]that as president Obama has given a giant "up yours" to Catholics, pro-lifers, etc, while we don't know what's actually going to happen if Romney becomes president. Or, you can "throw away your vote" by using it to vote for a third party candidate, and express your frustration with the two-party system. Personally I don't think I can rationalize a vote FOR Romney, even if it is against Obama, so I might end up voting third party.
[/quote]

In my opinion it is also an entirely valid moral choice to refuse to vote. Refuse to participate in this corrupt, evil system. It may not count for anything, but then again neither does your vote. But it is a moral stand.

[Papist]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1349373847' post='2489981']
Nice out.
[/quote]
You're so hardcore.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1349374764' post='2489984']
In my opinion it is also an entirely valid moral choice to refuse to vote. Refuse to participate in this corrupt, evil system. It may not count for anything, but then again neither does your vote. But it is a moral stand.
[/quote]

I disagree a bit with this. Do your best to find a third party candidate who could be worth supporting....that way....your vote will count and go into a percentage that shows your dissatisfaction with the two major contenders. Not voting does not show up as well as voting third party does.

My big qualm with not voting also is that you ignore all the other election races going on. Surely there are local races with a decent person worth supporting or some issue worth taking a side on?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1349379058' post='2490000']

I disagree a bit with this. Do your best to find a third party candidate who could be worth supporting....that way....your vote will count and go into a percentage that shows your dissatisfaction with the two major contenders. Not voting does not show up as well as voting third party does.

My big qualm with not voting also is that you ignore all the other election races going on. Surely there are local races with a decent person worth supporting or some issue worth taking a side on?
[/quote]

I understand that viewpoint entirely, but I have moved past it.

The thing about voting is that it explicitly lends your support to the system. By voting, you are acknowledging that the election is just. It is a token action, but action nonetheless.
This just feeds the idea that the system is fundamentally ok, but just needs some minor tweaking. That is untrue. The system is fundamentally broken. We do not need to patch it up and give it a bit of work. We need to rethink it from the ground up.
But if we keep voting, we keep saying "Yeah, this might be ok as long as [i]my guy[/i] gets in this time." That is not how it works. The system exists for its own sake. It exists to keep the elite in power, to let them keep stealing and murdering and lying and cheating. They are not going to make the necessary changes- why would they?
As long as we continue supporting the system that allows them to do this, nothing could possibly ever change.

Basically, if I reject the whole system root and branch, then I do not want to be counted among the people who, by their actions, formally support it.

Like I alluded to, it is not something that is going to effect major change. Not on its own. My non-vote does not count for anything outside of my conscience. Nor does your vote count, in reality. It is a stand on principle alone. And it is one that, for now, my conscience demands from me.

I do respect the position you are coming from. I am just motivated to move past it for now.

[Papist]

The only moral option is to write yourself in.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1349371780' post='2489965']
...

The problem I have with screening candidates solely based on being pro-life is that it pretty much gives them a license to do WHATEVER else they want, regardless of whether it'll be good for our country, just as long as they pay lip service to the pro-life cause. They basically hold our votes hostage, and I can't stand that....
[/quote]

This is a major reason why I'm not supporting Romney. I've had it with lip service on being pro-life. From now on, I demand actual strong efforts. Not stupid legislation like the partial birth abortion act or that thing the House passed several months ago. In both instances, there was or would have been very little effect on actual abortions. Nearly all the good abortion restrictions happen from the state level anyway...

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1349373259' post='2489978']
... Will Romney do that? I [b]hope [/b]not. Obama is saying "up yours" to the church. Will Romney do that? I [b]doubt [/b]it. AS far as social justice issues, where has Obama helped the poor? Enslaving the poor and making them dependent on government is not social justice..its socialism. Jesus said, "the poor you will always have with you." Again, this is our job as Catholic Christians to help the poor, not the government....

I am personal friends with several religious. All of them, priests, brothers, sisters and nuns are voting for Romney. Are they happy with that decision? Probably not. But obviously, its not a danger to the soul to vote for the lesser evil. If your conscience doesn't allow it, don't do it, but I think my conscience will bother me more if I help Obama win. I think we need to see that an Obama second term is the worst thing that can happen to our church and our country. We must do all we can to get him out of power.

[u]We also need to become more actively engaged in holding our politicians accountable for their evil policies[/u]. Get involved in the grassroots level to stop these evil policies and be a voice against them. St. Catherine of Sienna said, "it is silence that kills the world." Once Mitt is elected, we need to hold him accountable at every turn (i'm sure the media will...)
[/quote]

See, I'm not voting for Mitt because I am already holding him accountable for his past. While I fear Obama...I near equally fear Romney. And I fear most people have not taken that into consideration.

I predict Romney will probably win....and he will sell out the pro-life movement. He will weakly attempt to defund Planned Parenthood but will stop as soon as he meets resistance. The judges he appoints will be shaky-pro-life.....but their views will reflect the status-quo on abortion. "[b]But I tried[/b]" he will say when the pro-life movement complains. In 4 years, another democrat will rise........and sadly most of the pro-life movement will not hold Mitt accountable.....but will support him.....because again.....he is the [b]lesser of two evils....and Romney like many before him will again be held unaccountable.[/b]

I hope I am wrong in this prediction. But my gut...and Romney's past says I'm right.

[Winchester]

Abortion by drone is okay.