The Non-existence Of God

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1349840782' post='2491849']
"Believe in me and love me or you'll be tortured, physically and spiritually, for all of eternity."
[/quote]


Where the heck did you get that? It ain't in the Bible, nor is it a belief of the Church.




If you are trying to oversimplify, yer doin it wrong.

This is also overly simple, but much closer: " I will not force you to love me. Choose me or don't, it's up to you. Choices have consequences."

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1349898924' post='2492050']


Where the heck did you get that? It ain't in the Bible, nor is it a belief of the Church.


[/quote]
I think ACS67 and Hasan need to be careful what they read. Complex documents are easily totally misunderstood. Language is based on simple noisy sounds and lack ability to convey depth of meaning and are usually grossly misunderstood. Just as we here often misunderstand what others are writing. Gods greatest and best communication is through your experiences of him.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1349839677' post='2491843']
Luke 9:49-50
[/quote]
Truth!

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1349843785' post='2491861']
And what of the person who does not believe in God, an athiest, but lives a good and productive life? Is the person for us, or against us?

[/quote]
An atheist is only against us if he/she dose evil against us and therefore does not lead a good life. Anomaly appears to be with us.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1349872355' post='2491908']
Barbara,
While I appreciate all the expository from you, there is no need for it. God is the final judge, yes. But we will either die in the state of grace or we will not and unless we have severe mental incapacities most of us will know if our souls are in a state of grace or not. Even a child knows this. That's why we have a conscience and when properly formed, with the help of grace, it will be our guide.

Era does not strike me as "innocent" neither does Anomaly or Hasan. They all have given "full consent" therefore they will have to accept the "full consequences." But we can all pray for them until their last breath. They still have time to "turn around" and walk toward Our Lord instead of away from Him.
[/quote]

Thank you for sharing your insights.
I am always conscious that there are those posting with whom I may have some familiarity anyway as to attitudes etc. But there may be others reading only and for varying reasons to glean information.

Pope Benedict not all that long ago in speaking about St John of Arc stated that when asked by her inquisitors if she was in the state of Grace, her reply was "If I am, then I thank God. And if I am not, then may He please put me there". I think that we can have some moral assurance as to whether we have committed mortal sin or not, but salvation can never be earned by even the best of moral lives. Salvation is always a pure Gift of God unearned. It is gratuitious. While we cannot in any way whatsoever earn salvation, it is God's Gift to His creation through His Son, Jesus, we can choose to separate ourselves from that Gift and His Son. I am reminded of a story I think from the Desert Fathers. A monk had committed a serious offence and was banned from choir for a month. It was noticed that the abbot was also absent and concerned for his health, the elders decided to enquire after him in his cell. His reply to their concerns about his choir absence was "But I too am a sinner". Who am I to state that my sinfulness is less than anothers and thus I am saved, but the other is not. This is presumption and also a lack of loving mercy, or charity, towards another. We are not called by Jesus to judge each other, we are called to be loving and merciful, kind and thoughtful etc. and from the heart "I will take your hearts of stone and give you hearts of flesh". We are direly warned by Jesus to avoid the disposition with a will "Judge not, that you may not be judged". We are not called to proclaim a rigid God of moralistic judging, but a God of Loving Mercy and primarily we proclaim Him along the lines of St Francis of Assisi : "preach The Gospel at all times with words.......if you must". Primarily we proclaim our God by the people that we are.

Jesus has underscored for us too if we must 'measure' our Love of God. "How can you say you Love God whom you cannot see, if you do not love your neighbour whom you can see" That sentence always strikes me as the essence of common sense - in fact the simplicity of it almost defies common sense. If that makes sense! It is not up to me to pass judgement on my neighbour. I can share facts and in all directions on all matters perhaps, but it is up to my neighbour to make his or her own decision and may The Lord have Mercy on us all.

I think the actual status of our soul will also be discerned by The Lord in accord with the circumstances surrounding any grave offence - and The Church underscores this for us. Once we have some insight anyway into what sin of any degree actually is, then I think recourse becomes the Loving Mercy of God. Once this happens too, one becomes more inclined to be merciful towards others, rather than condemning. One is acutely aware of one's own dicey position. One is more inclined to note the good in another and frankly, I am now 66yrs of age and am yet to meet a person where I felt goodness was totally absent. This is merely a reflection of God's Mercy on my life, for I am well aware that terrible evils do exist.

I cannot say that anyone has either given full consent and with full knowledge - or whether they have not. I am simply not in a position to do so. I cannot know everything about another, in fact my knowledge of all others is always limited, as I am a limited and finite being. I used as a teenager to ponder the statue of justice, always blindfolded. I concluded that our human justice is always blinded in that it cannot know fully all the circumstances surrounding an act - certainly not as God can see and know.

It is indeed a serious matter to deny The Faith. That is all I personally am in a position to state and it is through my human nature an entirely limited statement (while in potential, a huge statement indeed) on the moral scale. And The Church underscores this for us. That grave matter which can separate one eternally from God and His Church needs two other conditions and at the same time as grave matter to complete the moral status of mortal sin. I am not in a position to make these determinations about another - and sometimes I am not too sure about myself either. I feel that God has given me a blest life, despite some major upheavals and challenges - and "to whom more is given, more will be expected".

We are all human and limited and in all directions. If we are going to err and we will, then may it be on the side of Mercy. To my mind, the Loving Mercy of God is His 'weakness', or better perhaps, His Total Inclination. If we need evidence, we need go no further than the Incarnation.

Again I am working against the clock and have not read all posts and if any are addressed to me, I am hoping to return in a day or two if not tonight.

Edited October 11, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Just before moving on, I would like to comment on the following :


Luke Ch9 : 49 - 50
[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=9&l=49#x"][color=#0f72da][49][/color][/url] And John, answering, said: Master, we saw a certain man casting out devils in thy name, and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=9&l=50#x"][color=#0f72da][50][/color][/url] And Jesus said to him: Forbid him not; for he that is not against you, is for you.

This underscores for me that Jesus was not too concerned about the intellectual activity of others. Those casting out devils in His Name clearly were not His followers believing in Him. It seems to me they were somewhat 'cashing in' on the fame and good reputation of Jesus amongst the people and thus identifying themselves falsely with Him. This does not perturb Jesus in the least, because they are acting mercifully in ridding the possessed of devils. This does underscore for me the heirarchy of values of Jesus. St Paul tells us that ALL good comes from God. All that is good and positive in our world comes from God. Hence, it seems to me again, that Jesus recognized this in the merciful acts of the 'excorcists' and was not going to speak against His Father from whom all good flows. Jesus is not judgemental, rather He is Loving and Merciful - after all if He spoke out against these 'excorcists' then perhaps some would not be rid of their possession. Nor does He say "Forbid them to do so, rather bring the possessed to Me" as probably He could have done if He was judgemental and biased in His own direction rather than a Man of Humility ( )
Personally, I am convinced we shall be amazed to find who we are sitting next to in Heaven. It reminds me of a joke. God was showing an secularist and a, let's say, a relativist around Heaven. They pass this huge wall and it goes on for miles. It gets too much for these two men and they enquire "Dear Lord, what is the huge wall for?" "Shhhhh says Jesus, the Catholics are behind there and they are convinced they are the only ones here". It's a joke

Edited October 11, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[ACS67]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1349911074' post='2492108']
[b]Gods greatest and best communication is through your experiences of him.[/b]
[/quote]
Which is completely subjective and changeable. Counter that with dogma/doctrine which is objective and unchanging. I'll take the latter.

No wonder the Church needs a "Year of Faith"! Good grief!

Edited October 11, 2012 by ACS67

[Groo the Wanderer]

[url="http://pillarsofcatholicism.com/"]http://pillarsofcatholicism.com/[/url]

go there. sign up. free classes in Catholicism from JPtG University

this is for all the phamily

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1349920522' post='2492159']
Which is completely subjective and changeable. Counter that with dogma/doctrine which is objective and unchanging. I'll take the latter.

No wonder the Church needs a "Year of Faith"! Good grief!
[/quote]

I dont think we should discount absolutely personal experience of God. Certainly I think it of vital importance that such experiences be subjected to a spiritual director.
Dogma and doctine must always take absolute precedence over personal experience(s) which are entirely subjective and changeable, and the latter if not from God.
Our saint mystics, for example, had personal experiences of God and what they have written has been underscored by The Church as free from doctrinal error - after their death and very close examination of their lives and what they wrote. Their writings in fact often give us clearer insight into our doctrinal truths. I am thinking at this point of St Faustina and her astounding mystical experiences and insights into God's Mercy for one. At one point, her writings were held questionable.
I am thinking too at this point about St Bernadette of Lourdes and her visions and communications from Our Lady as well as the children of Fatima and the message of Our Lady of Fatima. All are personal experiences of God. All validated by The Church.
But personally, I would be entirely sceptical until I had subjected all absolutely, with docility, to a spiritual director for affirmation or otherwise. For advice and instructions. And insofar as we have 'modern day mystical experiences', I take no noticed as and until The Church validates or otherwise.

[BarbTherese]

Duplicate - apologies.

Edited October 11, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[4588686]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1349920522' post='2492159']
Which is completely subjective and changeable. Counter that with dogma/doctrine which is objective and unchanging. I'll take the latter.

No wonder the Church needs a "Year of Faith"! Good grief!
[/quote]


Right. So personal experiences are subjective and changeable as opposed to the purported personal experiences that other individuals had which were affirmed by a council of men, who never knew them, decades later, and interpreted by men centuries after that. That's objectivity for you!

Your fairy tale is no more objective than his.

[ACS67]

Hasan,

My "fairy tale" keeps you coming back here everyday apparently . If you are so "Non Catholic" why are you hanging out on a Catholic forum? (why Phatmass allows you to is another puzzle).

[4588686]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1349926656' post='2492198']
Hasan,

My "fairy tale" keeps you coming back here everyday apparently .
[/quote]

No. The people here are what makes me come back. Despite the fact that they are all inferior to me, as is everyone, I'm actually really fond of them.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1349927268' post='2492200']
No. The people here are what makes me come back. Despite the fact that they are all inferior to me, as is everyone, I'm actually really fond of them.
[/quote]

..............Mmmm ..........well..... you cannot be stated to have a lack of straightforward conviction ............ I do suspect that you might be 'baiting'? This is a debate forum and insofar as I know those not Catholics can be members and debate their points of views in threads. I think those that have a contrary view to my own are great stuff - if on another level really saddening. Debate can force me to reflect on what I believe and why, do some researching and thinking through, and to strive to present my perspective with some clarity. Strive, that is! Different perspectives and beliefs can force me to really try to listen to what the other has to say including between lines. A discussion forum gives me the opportunity to try to read with care and to reflect - unlike person to person debates. It can remind me to pause and pray for a moment.

That said, I think it is rather like an engineer and an artist reflecting on a building........ for a poor example of only. That is, Catholics are coming from one set of beliefs and perspectives, convictions, and you from a totally different set. Apples and oranges ? In hope, there might be a bridge and a genuine search for truth, but I suspect that you might be as stubbornly convinced of your beliefs etc. as we are for ours. That is only my take, and my take can be rather regularly wrong now and then, which doesn't really upset me, while it is not my favourite position.
.

Edited October 11, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

[quote]Quote ACS67

14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter [b]or to remain in it, could not be saved.[/b]
...All the Church's children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. [b][i]If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged[/i][/b].(13*)

[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html"][color=#0f72da]http://www.vatican.v...gentium_en.html[/color][/url]

[b]Edited by ACS67, Yesterday, 12:35 PM.[/b] [/quote]

I found the article quoted in part below with link rewarding, if lengthy, from Catholic Resources. It does illustrate how doctrine never changes, but our insights into it can develop. It also illustrated to me how The Church is situated in human history and is a living organism. We will continue to develop insights into what we believe until the end of time. The gates of Hell shall not prevail against us. We might rock and tremble in some crisis or other, sometimes indeed terrible crises having terrible consequences, either from external forces or even the internal. Perspective and atitutude come into play here. We can either view it as a downward slide, or a purification. But we will in Grace resolve problems and trauma evenutally and go on until the final conflict with evil and Christ returns victorious.

Just as there are Catholics in The Church who do not live up to The Gospel, so there are Catholics who do strive trying to live up to it and outstandingly so.

Sure early Christiaity felt Christ's return was any day in their times. But then we developed insight into the words of Jesus that only the Father knows the time when He will return, hence our thinking has changed, not the core and fundamental point, that He will indeed return, but re the date in history of that return. The essence of The Second Coming is that Jesus will return, and victorious.

"[url="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0155.html"]http://catholiceduca...ics/ap0155.html[/url]
[b] [size=4]Can Outsiders Be Insiders?[/size][/b]

[size=4][b]FR. PETER STRAVINSKAS[/b] [/size]
[b] [size=4]What does the Catholic Church mean by its doctrine "Outside the Church There Is No Salvation"? Does this mean that non-Catholics can't be saved? What's the official Catholic teaching, past and present, about the Church's mission to evangelize non-Catholics and bring them into eternal life in Christ? A noted theologian answers these and other crucial questions.[/size][/b]


[quote]
[u]Ecerpt[/u]:

"Let us highlight a few points here. First, don't miss the word "fullness," which makes the critical distinction between the possession by the Catholic Church of all that is needed for salvation, while still allowing for aspects of that fullness to be present elsewhere. Second, the Council Fathers were very careful to refer to "churches and communities," to underscore the fact that not all non-Catholic Christian bodies have the same degree of what we might dub "churchiness." To qualify as a "church," a body must have apostolic succession which ensures valid Orders and thus a valid Eucharist; those lacking that reality are called "communities." Third, unabashedly, the decree makes the Catholic Church the norm, the standard and the source of whatever is good and holy in any other Christian community. Simply put, to the extent they have retained the vestiges of Catholicism, they are more or less participants in the life of grace which exists in its fullness only in the Catholic Church.
Quite logically, then, that very same Council gives in [b][i]Lumen Gentium[/i] this sober assessment: "Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, [this sacred synod] teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. For Christ, made present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique Way of salvation. In explicit terms, He Himself affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through Baptism as through a door men enter the Church." [/b]

In shorthand form, we see the ongoing doctrinal commitment to the necessity of the Church in salvation.
And then, the follow-up:[b] "Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by God through Jesus Christ, would refuse to enter her or to remain in her, could not be saved."[/b] So, we are face to face with the traditional doctrine, made with the accompanying qualifying remarks about a conscious refusal to join or remain within the one Church of Christ.

Having surveyed the history of [i]extra ecclesiam nulla salus,[/i] we stand in a position to see how this doctrine has developed over the centuries. And indeed, a close look at history shows that the doctrine has developed, and not reversed. The earliest uses of the slogan ([i]extra ecclesiam nulla salus[/i] Latin for "outside the Church, no salvation" bracets are mine). were aimed at those who apostatized from the Good News and who were thus fully conscious in their rejection of it. As the Faith spread across the world, many Catholics assumed all had heard the Gospel, and those who remained non-Christian did so from obstinacy and sin. Though their general assumption was incorrect, it pointed to an important truth: those who consciously reject Christ are barred from salvation. When the New World was discovered, however, the old assumptions had to be revised; clearly, there were people who had not heard the Gospel preached. With that came the understanding that God could, in His mercy, save those who never knew of Christ, but nevertheless sought to follow God. None of these points contradict the doctrine enunciated in the Second Vatican Council.

Valid doctrinal development involves the gradual growth in understanding of a core, unchanging truth. At the heart of [b][i]extra ecclesiam nulla salus[/i] [/b]is the fundamental dogma that the Church is absolutely necessary for salvation. [b]Through Christ's body, God's grace is channeled into the world[/b]. In the words of [i]Lumen Gentium,[/i] the Church is the "universal sacrament of salvation." All salvation comes through Christ's Church; apart from that grace, there is no hope for eternal life. This point has been understood in different ways throughout the history of Christianity, and yet the doctrine has remained intact. Those who claim the Church has changed its stand on [i]extra ecclesiam[/i] fail to recognize this core truth in the midst of its various interpretations. In doing so, they ignore the development that occurs in the doctrinal life of the historic Church." [/quote]


If we do have the heart and mind of Christ, our living and active hope will be the salvation of all mankind and our own longing and prayer can be vitally important to this hope - and see today's Gospel which speaks to the efficacy of persevering prayer - [url="http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/101112.cfm"]http://www.usccb.org...ings/101112.cfm[/url]

Edited October 11, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[Anomaly]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1349926656' post='2492198']
My "fairy tale" keeps you coming back here everyday apparently . If you are so "Non Catholic" why are you hanging out on a Catholic forum? (why Phatmass allows you to is another puzzle).
[/quote]Hasan seems to keep coming back because he enjoys the idolation and words of encouragement from the rabble. Since you don't want to hear or read people here voicing your opinion, I would think you would understand and identify with Hasan.

I keep coming back because interacting with other people and discussing or reading other's positions and explanations challenges me to question my own blind beliefs and superstitious assumptions while re-enforcing and bolstering conclusions and ethos I do hold. Kinda like a reality or honesty exercise. Though I don't agreed 100% with anyone here in the 10 years I've been visiting and posting on PM, there are many people who's opinion I respect and I learn from them. I've evolved and developed as peson and appreciate it. I don't believe in some mythical final justice with an afterlife, but do feel compled to do the best I can with the next 30 years I may get lucky to be around. It's just a mortal human thing.

Ya scared, bro?