The Non-existence Of God

[Guest]

Era Might what up dude. I still remember a song or 2 you had with Krush back in the day. Dope stuff. You 2 were /are very talented when it comes to rapping. Lord knows I'm not a Holy man so I have no advice to give. I did read this whole thread and you're in my prayers. For sure keep your faith in God as a creator. Don't lose that. It seems as if you have lost faith in Christ being who He said he was. I can relate to how you are questioning religion/catholicism. I'm a 100 percent sold on catholicism and its a burden on me because I can't live up to what it ask of me. But through my life experiences and interaction with God I'm sold on it being the truth. I still struggle with stuff like masturbation or missing mass being a mortal sin and capable of sending me to hell. But it is what it is. You're a million times smarter then me and sometimes I think that pry makes it easier on me. Mabey I just accept things more. But then again my catholic / christian faith comes down to me believing Christ died and was ressurected. And I do have a very personal relationship with Him. And feel I can go directly to him by myself to ask for forgiveness and things like that. But I also see the beautey and power in confession and I'm thankful for that sacrament and I pray I never abandon it. Anyhow dude prayers and hope you're good and Godbless. I hope you get that faith back in Jesus Christ and The Holy Trinity. Peace.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Guest

[Guest]

I read a book by wayne dyer. He's real new age. It sounds sorta like where you're at. Mabey I'm wrong. But wayne talks a lot about the power of intention and viewing God as a "source". He doesn't believe in hell. Its that's new age movement. Its really catchy. But most of all it spits on Christ on the cross. Because its saying it wasn't needed. So either Christ didn't really die and raise from the dead. Or if he did die on the cross it was for nothing. And then it was a big conspiracy afterwards and there no ressurection. Because Christ isn't God. And if you have evidence to proove that Christ is a hoax let me hear it. Don't worry about scandalizing (sp) my faith. Although my faith is pretty strong so it would be hard to take. Again peace be with you buddy.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Guest

[ACS67]

Era,

Just make sure you know what you are doing before you really do it. Denying the faith has serious consequences. I'm sure you are aware of what it says in Lumen Gentium about the seriousness and accountability of Catholics who deny their faith (I had to re-read it in order to remind myself!). I get angry and disilluisioned too at the Church. I'm sure many Catholics have and do. But do not like pride, emotions, and over-intellectualism ruin your faith. The Catholic Faith is a tremendous gift, a gift from Christ HImself given personally to you, and me, and all other Catholics. Do you really want to throw something that beautiful away? Know what you are doing before you really do it (or say it).

[i]Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee....blessed art thou amonst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. [/i]

[BarbTherese]

I am not commenting on any post in particular, rather points I have noted in reading some posts.

Only mortal sin can condemn a soul to Hell and separation from God eternally and this latter is what the person[u][b] chooses[/b][/u] in free will in commiting mortal sin - not something that God inflicts 'after the event'. To deny The Faith is certainly grave matter, however two other conditions are required and they are full knowledge and full consent at the same time as grave matter is committed. Only God and the person involved can know if full knowledge and full consent are actually present. Too often Catholics are prone to saying "It is a mortal sin" when what they mean and the correct statement is "It is grave matter and thus a danger of mortal sin". Sometimes it can be that the person who commits grave matter does not know after the event if full knowledge and full consent were present at that time as there may be qualifying matters present. In the final analysis only God can know. We can certainly identify what is grave matter and the potential consequences if grave matter might actually be mortal sin - to assess that it is the actual state of mortal sin and separated from God and His Church is another matter. To state that a person is indeed separated from God and His Church is a serious offence against Charity in itself.
Catholic Catechism:
[quote]
[b]1860[/b] [i]Unintentional ignorance[/i] can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. [u][b]The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures[/b][/u] or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest. [/quote]

We do live in troubled times in The Church and in our societies, a time of stress and exterior and interior pressures of one kind or another, and it is not at all a difficult matter to be confused totally and to question, even doubt. Perhaps even to deny. Judgement belongs to God alone and judgement is to assess [b]and[/b] to affirm consequence (and with mortal sin it is first chosen). As long as we are living on this earth we are journeying and many are the stages in the journey of life. We enter these stages, pass through them and then journey on. We can either strive to encourage each other through difficult stages, or we can condemn them within it. I have often thought that it is possibly not as important that man believes in God, but far more important that God goes on believing in man seeing in each person the reflection of His Son somewhere. We have Christians, claiming Christianity who in some thoughts, words and deeds can be quite unChristian - and we have athiests who in thought, word and deed can be remarkably quite Christian like, or Christ like, in some thoughts, words and deeds. We do not insight with absolute and full clarity what has brought an athiest to his state of denying or denial - God does. We are called to strive" to seek and save the lost ", reflecting the mission of Jesus. And 'hell and damnation' threatened in any way is to construct through force a religion based on and motivated by fear of a moralistic and judgemental type of god, rather than Faith and trust in a God of Love and Mercy as proclaimed by Jesus and His Church.

[quote]Luke 6 :
And he made haste and came down; and received him with joy. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=19&l=7#x"][7][/url] And when all saw it, they murmured, saying, that he was gone to be a guest with a man that was a sinner. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=19&l=8#x"][8][/url] But Zacheus standing, said to the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have wronged any man of any thing, I restore him fourfold. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=19&l=9#x"][9][/url] Jesus said to him: This day is salvation come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=19&l=10#x"][10][/url] [u][b]For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost[/b][/u]. [/quote]

In the above we have a known sinner who acts in a quite Christian type of way. We have quite a few instances in The Gospel of Jesus' interaction with non believers and sinners - non of these interactions are condemning, rather Jesus sights in them something worthy and affirms this, building on it. The Samaritan woman at the well is another notable anecdote. Jews did not speak to Samaritans and certainly a Jewish male in the times of Jesus did not interact with a woman alone. Samaritans could be termed as an heretical sect of the Jewish Faith. We have the story too of the Roman centurian - a pagan. Many other stories, remarkable even startling parables. It seems that Jesus was not so immediately concerned about the intellectual activity of a person. Certainly Jesus seems to have real problems with the pharisees, but His bone of contention seems to be their double standards, one for themselves (easy and profitable) and another for all others (overly demanding in every way).

It is always helpful if in quoting some text or document, one also gives the references so the quote can be put into its context.

Off me pulpit!

Edited October 10, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[ACS67]

[quote]
14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter [b]or to remain in it, could not be saved.[/b]
...All the Church's children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. [b][i]If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged[/i][/b].(13*)
[/quote]
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html"]http://www.vatican.v...gentium_en.html[/url]

Edited October 10, 2012 by ACS67

[Anomaly]

Luke 9:49-50

[4588686]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1349808871' post='2491701']
Era,

Just make sure you know what you are doing before you really do it. Denying the faith has serious consequences. I'm sure you are aware of what it says in Lumen Gentium about the seriousness and accountability of Catholics who deny their faith (I had to re-read it in order to remind myself!). I get angry and disilluisioned too at the Church. I'm sure many Catholics have and do. But do not like pride, emotions, and over-intellectualism ruin your faith. The Catholic Faith is a tremendous gift, a gift from Christ HImself given personally to you, and me, and all other Catholics. Do you really want to throw something that beautiful away? [i] [/i]
[/quote]

"Believe in me and love me or you'll be tortured, physically and spiritually, for all of eternity."

What a beautiful gift!















Oops. I misspelled narcissistic and sadistic.

[4588686]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1349808871' post='2491701']
Era,

Just make sure you know what you are doing before you really do it. Denying the faith has serious consequences. I'm sure you are aware of what it says in Lumen Gentium about the seriousness and accountability of Catholics who deny their faith (I had to re-read it in order to remind myself!). I get angry and disilluisioned too at the Church. I'm sure many Catholics have and do. But do not like pride, emotions, and over-intellectualism ruin your faith. The Catholic Faith is a tremendous gift, a gift from Christ HImself given personally to you, and me, and all other Catholics. Do you really want to throw something that beautiful away? [i] [/i]
[/quote]

"Believe in me and love me or you'll be tortured, physically and spiritually, for all of eternity."

What a beautiful gift!















Oops. I misspelled narcissistic and sadistic.

[BarbTherese]

[quote]Luke Ch9 : 49 - 50
[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=9&l=49#x"][49][/url] And John, answering, said: Master, we saw a certain man casting out devils in thy name, and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=9&l=50#x"][50][/url] And Jesus said to him: Forbid him not; for he that is not against you, is for you. [/quote]
And what of the person who does not believe in God, an athiest, but lives a good and productive life? Is the person for us, or against us?


[quote]14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter [b]or to remain in it, could not be saved.[/b]
...All the Church's children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. [b][i]If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged[/i][/b].(13*)

[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html"][color=#0f72da]http://www.vatican.v...gentium_en.html[/color][/url]
[/quote]

The qualifying statement to "they will be the more severely judged" is "If they fail moreover to respond to that grace". Who can say with clear knowledge and convication that the person has actually received that special Grace and is refusing to respond to it? Or that having received that wonderful and special Grace, has not caved into the pressures of feelings or some external or even internal pressure - and thus according to the CCC full consent is possibly not present. And the qualifying statement to "could not be saved" is "knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ" Who can say with absolute conviction and beyond any doubt that this knowledge is truly present. God alone is our Judge and God condemns no one -we cannot sit in judgement (re eternal salvation or the lack of it)on each other and are never in a position to do so. God eternally loves and for all eternity every single soul. However, He has gifted us with free will (we are absolutely free to choose in all things - ALL)and providing we are acting, in complete freedom and with full knowledge, contrary to His Law, we are [u][b]at the one and the same[/b][/u] time also CHOOSING to abandon God completely and His Church. And God alone can judge whether each person has done this or not and with total and absolute accuracy - God reads the heart of every man, while man can only judge what appears to be (Book of Samuel Ch16 - 7)
-
Also, what I wrote (quoting the Catholic Catechism) about mortal sin alone condemning a person, through [b]their own choice[/b], to eternal separation from God and His Church clicks into place. God does not impose Hell and eternal damnation, we have to freely and fully choose it. To my mind, one of the most skilful deceptions of Satan is that God can impose damnation on the unwilling and 'innocent'. Unfortunately, sometimes much of in general use Catholic terminology tends to reinforce this deception. Jesus has underscored for us in a few places that Hell indeed exists and we have the free will to choose it if we wish to do so.

The term "faithful Catholic" is an interesting one. What makes a Catholic a faithful Catholic? It is not only Mass on Sundays and the other precepts of The Church, it is also to be a follower of The Gospel and 24x7. In the Parable of The Good Samaritan it can probaly be presumed that the levite and the priest Jesus refers to were probably 'faithful' followers of the Jewish Faith (levites served in The Temple); however, neither is moved by compassion as the Samaritan is. To the ears of the people in the times of Jesus, elevating the behaviour of a Samaritan and excluding the priest and levite, would have been astounding and near on heresy. It was (to say the least) to them an absolutely challenging concept. Perhaps, possibly,- something rather akin, to our modern ears, of being dismissive of X who attends Mass every day and upholding XX who never does. The Jewish Faith in the times of Jesus abounded in many many laws and regulations, while the spirit of The Law was neglected. This can be seen in the story of the apostles picking corn on the Sabbath which was against the Jewish Law. The story can be found here [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=2&l=23#x"]http://www.drbo.org/...=48&ch=2&l=23#x[/url] In his Sermon on the Mount Jesus proclaims the Spirit of The Law. Sometimes the real impact of the parables and words of Jesus, the stories, are lost because we do not experience them within the culture of Jesus - His times and the Jewish Faith.

[quote]"Believe in me and love me or you'll be tortured, physically and spiritually, for all of eternity."

What a beautiful gift!
Oops. I misspelled narcissistic and sadistic. [/quote]

Not a quotation from Scripture rather, I think (and when I think I can be wrong), a distorted assessment of Scripture, The Gospel and Catholic Moral Theology. God condemns no one. In free will we can choose eternal separation from God and from His Church by grave offences (together with full knowledge and full consent) against the Moral Law. In other words we have to choose the torture, physically and spiritually, for all of eternity. Also, love of God AND neighbour are intrinsically united.

"Let us therefore love God, because God first hath loved us. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=69&ch=4&l=20#x"][20][/url] If any man say, I love God, and hateth his brother; he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother, whom he seeth, how can he love God, whom he seeth not? [[url="http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=69&ch=4&l=20#x"]1 John 4:20[/url]] "

Also, " Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. [[url="http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=7&l=21#x"]Matthew 7:21[/url]]"

Edited October 10, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Matthew
Chapter 7

"Judge not, that you may not be judged, [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=7&l=2#x"][2][/url] For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=7&l=3#x"][3][/url] And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye? [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=7&l=4#x"][4][/url] Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye? [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=7&l=5#x"][5][/url] Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. "

And by pointing out my own personal beliefs, I am acutely conscious that I just [u]might[/u] perhaps indeed see the mote in my brother's eye and very possibly cannot see the beam in my own. We each work out our own salvation in "fear and trembling" (Phillipians 2:12) and only "Perfect Love casts out fear". The whole journey of life are differing stages on differing levels and one can only act according to one's lights at the time - or "only play the cards one is dealt" while those cards may have been dealt as they were for jolly good reasons and this, though 'colloquial terminology', comes under the Catholic Theology of the Permissive Will of God. According to this eye beamed.

The Sermon on the Mount can be found here : [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=5&l=28#x"]http://www.drbo.org/...=47&ch=5&l=28#x[/url]

Edited October 10, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

I have wandered off the subject of this thread as stated in the opening post. I am a wanderer. To return to that subject, the following blog seems to have many interesting subject headings with links - and related to the opening subject on the existence of God. It is a Catholic blog. Much of the texts (at some quick glances) are beyond my limited understanding and perhaps more on the level of other posters in this thread :

[url="http://clearcatholic.blogspot.com.au/2009/05/does-god-exist.html"]http://clearcatholic.blogspot.com.au/2009/05/does-god-exist.html[/url]

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

TinyTherese ,I started reading the intro, to big for me. Hopefully one day though i may get into it. I like the papal encyclicals and the works and biographies of the saints though, i have read a few, these prove to me the existance of something greater than us but also of what that something is.

<edit> that stuff is really interlectual and probably good for people with high iq's, i am only about 103 but before i was only 93 untill i switched off the t.v and started bangin in daily holy mass, and listening to heaps of christian music instead. I was already reading sacred scripture heaps and meditating on the mysteries daily. What switching off t.v. gave me the chance to do was examine my concience heaps and simple prayer entered into my life also, i was only talking to our lord/prayer in the spirit mainly at night in bed before removing the t.v/movie obstruction. Probably not an exact remdition of how it all went.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[ACS67]

Barbara,
While I appreciate all the expository from you, there is no need for it. God is the final judge, yes. But we will either die in the state of grace or we will not and unless we have severe mental incapacities most of us will know if our souls are in a state of grace or not. Even a child knows this. That's why we have a conscience and when properly formed, with the help of grace, it will be our guide.

Era does not strike me as "innocent" neither does Anomaly or Hasan. They all have given "full consent" therefore they will have to accept the "full consequences." But we can all pray for them until their last breath. They still have time to "turn around" and walk toward Our Lord instead of away from Him.

[Guest]

Even a child knows if there in a state of "grace" ??? Please explain....lmao

[ACS67]

A Catholic child who has a properly formed conscience and has been catechised knows when they have committed mortal sins, stealing, lying cheating, killing (yes children today kill). They then "know" through their conscience that they are "not in a state of grace" and need to go to confession. Of course all of this assumes they have parents who have done their job and raised them properly in the faith. I attend a FSSP parish so perhaps I take it for granted that parents teach their kids the faith.

Catholics today have an abundance of resources out there to learn and live their faith, if they truly want to, there are no excuses. At no other time in history have Catholics had so many tools available to them in order to live grace-filled life. Is it tough? Darn right it is. But Our Lord never promised a bed of roses, he only promised us the Cross.

Edited October 10, 2012 by ACS67