Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

[reyb]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1350352546' post='2493840']
[b]Apostle Paul was born 5AD if I got my facts right. So he was no more a witness to Jesus than anyone. He believed and converted because he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to propagate the doctrine of Jesus. Because like many he could see that Jesus doctrine could have only come from God. No mere prophet could teach such profound wisdom in such a fallen evil and violent world. Apostle Paul spread the good news as he heard it from the witnesses of the historical Jesus. How can have so much faith in St. Paul and yet not see that???[/b]



The story of Paul is fascinating. He is at the time persecuring Christians, murdering them. He was a Roman Jew, if memory serves as sometimes it certainly does not. Paul is struck to the ground as he is on the road headed for Damascus - and then has a conversation with Jesus who speaks to Him long after His Death and Resurrection. His story is here : [url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/51009.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/51009.htm[/url]
The Acts of The Apostles makes fascinating reading.

Certainly St Peter, Head of The Church at the time, and St Paul had a big argument over a point of discipline. Paul won incidentally and Peter did agree that Paul was right in this instance (Peter as Head of The Church then had the casting vote) and as a result of that and the casting vote decision, the disciplinary matter was settled as fact - and we gentiles can thank The Lord for His Apostle and missionary, St Paul. - the story is in the Acts of The Apostles. Although there was to be much unrest over all the gentiles (all non Jewish people)also being called by God to be amongst the chosen and this did cause problems in the early Church......arguments, more arguments and then even more arguments! This does reflect how our Catholic Bishops, our Scripture Scholars and Theologians and others who advise our heirarchy can disagree with each other, but The Holy Father, The Pope, always has the casting vote. We Christians have argued since the time of the Apostles of Jesus, who had arguments amongst themselves back then too. Back then, Jesus of course settled matters. He had the casting vote naturally. Nothing new in Christians arguing and the 'pattern' was set from the very beginning, although Paul has much to say about the marks or fruits, evidence or how to identify that Wisdom that comes from God. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=66&ch=3&l=17#x"]http://www.drbo.org/...=66&ch=3&l=17#x[/url] It is only a quite short chapter.
I am always moved by the tone of our encyclicals, documents etc. that do come out of Rome and our Magisterium and The Holy Father - putting aside just for this moment WHAT they have to say, what moves me with Joy also is how what they have to say is said. The tone of the Documents - Wisdom from God indeed and evidenced by their 'mood' or tone, the frame of mind and disposition of the writers.

I quite often pray for a similar spirit of great Love of God and neighbour, humilty,and clarity of expression when I write (I am a prolific writer) not that I have ever even nearly approached it. But then Jesus told us that our prayers are always answered and to knock and we shall receive. He didn't tell us how long we would have to knock however just to keep knocking and praying in quiet trustful confidence. And I further reason that God always knows best and is a Loving Father who would not give his child a scorpion when they ask for food. And sometimes my requests and petitions (without me being aware) and if God actually granted them, would IN ACTUALITY be like a person who gives a child a scorpion when what they desire and need is food. I only THINK I know what is good for me and others - and when I THINK, it can get risky even dangerous. Then I further reason that all my many mistakes and failures stumbles and falls, do serve to keep me in my place interiorly, if nothing else does ............... and doesn't!!!

[Edit:; Paul does really agonize and agonize with himself before he is given audience with Peter in order to confront him over the point of discipline. I really felt sorry for him reading it. I have often agonized myself over some important upcoming discussion with someone who is my superior In Scripture, there are many incidents in both the Old and New Testament that are funny if one allows one's imagination to present a picture of what happened. In another place in Acts, to escape from the Jews who are planning to kill Paul, some disciples lower him out a window in a basket :). That is a funny image. And in the Old Testament, we have one of the prophets trying to run (as the prophets often did) from the task God had given them. One of them jumped into a well to hide and so God sent an angel to take him by the hair and pull him out. Our poor prophets, most of them were persecuted if not murdered for carrying out their task from God. And some of these stories of how they tried to run are funny if the imagination runs over them. There is dear Jonah too of course, who gets kicked off the ship in which he is trying to run from God and God's taks for him - and lands in the belly of a whale!!! :) Another funny tale. God is Great and indeed He is Supremely Good! .....and has a sense of humour!]
[/quote]

BarbaraTherese,
Let us talk about this later Okay? We will go back on this issue since you are posting some evidences re: Jesus.

Let us go back to our discussion.

[reyb]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350220486' post='2493250']
I said I am not Gnostic like Marcion because I do not know Marcion or I never read any of his letters. I am not aware too if Gnostics are intentionally hiding any particular knowledge or not though it can be shared thus, I do not belong to them since I am not hiding anything from you.

[b]But let me clarify things because it seems you are telling us that the ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 2:6-7 is not hidden to Catholics.[/b] Actually, if it is true then you cannot see me writing like this since we have nothing to talk about. I know you believed in your traditions that Apostle Paul belongs to your group and worshipping God thru that same Jesus Christ which now I called ‘historical Jesus Christ’. But I want to tell you why I do not agree.

The one I called ‘historical Jesus Christ’ is your Jesus in Catholics’ salvation history. I hope it is very clear now. You can see how easy to share your Jesus from one man to another. Just two of you come together, one is sharing the other is listening and at once, if both is willing it can be shared easily. You see how easily we can understand each other regarding this Jesus we are now talking about.

But I am telling in this forum many times that there is another Jesus which is still hidden from you and that is the Jesus Apostle Paul is truly saying and not your historical Jesus. You said I need to tell you who is that ‘other Jesus’ and just like I said before. Your request is not possible because only God can reveal him. I am not lying to you. It cannot be shared by anyone even if a true witness is willing. Thus, this whole ‘sharing thing’ is termed by Apostle Paul, ‘foolishness of God’ in 1 Cor 1:25. A willing witness who cannot share what he saw and a willing listener who cannot understand what he is sharing and a God who says proclaim it because I want all of you to be saved. To make it clearer to you, even all of us come together – all of us in heaven and on earth come together as one in sharing and listening to each other. We cannot reveal Him because only God can do it. That is how, ‘How foolish it is’. Thus Apostle Paul said (1 Cor 1:25) ‘For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom,

But I see a way how can I come into your heart. I will share my love to you by showing you your fault. I know you will get mad at me. But still, I will share my Lord to you.
[/quote]

Okay I will change my previous word 'us' to 'me' since you are questioning it and thus our discussion was lost.

[b]But let me clarify things because it seems you are telling [/b][size=4]me [/size][b]that the ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 2:6-7 is not hidden to Catholics.[/b]

Can you please tell me if this 'secret wisdom' mentioned by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 2:6-7 is no longer hidden to Catholic Church? (or still hidden)

Edited October 16, 2012 by reyb

[BarbTherese]

It may have been a mistake, reby (and I make plenty of them) - but you seem to be responding to your own post. You probably, or might, find me confusing, as I find you. That's life and life only - and life, I love you, Gift of God that you are! What colour our different personalities introduce into God's World and He delights in us all, every last one of us.

I do not mean at all to be unkind, nor direspectful. But I have no intention of trying to answer any question you put in this thread, none of them unless it happens accidentally without forethought to any question of yours - or you conclude somehow something or other, whatever. And the conclusions you are making about my concepts - are not my concepts at all at times. I have put a few questions myself, which you have ignored, and this is your right. Nothing obliges any member to respond to another post, even if it is directed to them personally. So you can ignore my questions, and I yours.

The fruits of the Wisdom from God are as quoted below. And these are the signs that the spirit of a person (not what the person has to say, but how they say it or the person that they are) is of the Wisdom of God - and as I pointed out in a previous post, Jesus seemed disinterested in a person's intellectual activity (their beliefs, particular profession of belief) and focused on the type of person that they were. For example, and one example only though there are quite a few. A Roman centurian sends a message to Jesus asking for a cure for his servant and most humbly addressed to Jesus in a remarkable statement. Jesus heals servant - and then He says: [b]"[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=8&l=10#x"][color=#0f72da][10][/color][/url] [/b][b]And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him: Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith in Israel." [/b]In fact, this would have totally scandalized and offended those of His Jewish faith profession. It was in fact a thinly veiled, almost tongue in cheek, dig at Jewish leadership, especially the Pharisees and Sadduccees, Levites. No wonder they decided that somehow they had to be completely rid of Jesus............ Jesus does not involve Himself, is not concerned at all, that the centurian is a pagan worshipping many gods. He doesn't throw Himself into an argument over belief, not one little bit. He is most interested in the type of person one is and primarily so. What He in fact does, is state that a pagan worshiping many Gods can have more Faith per se, than any Jewish person at any level at all. That should make us scratch our heads........take time to think a little, reflect and ponder with a pray for guidance.........surely!
Not only did the people absolutely marvel at the authority with which Jesus spoke, the things He was saying were absolutely astounding to the people and a direct challenge to Jewish religious leadership.
Meanwhile, Mary, His mother, who was quite an intelligent woman would probably have been rather anxious as an imaginary picture comes to mind based on the scene with the centurian. She knew what had happened to the cousin of Jesus, he had been beheaded and in response to his total condemnation of the behaviour of a Jewish leader, Herod. And here is her Son doing exactly the same thing in open public criticism of Jewish religious leadership. Her Son was certainly intelligent also and could read situations.

[u]Fruits of the Wisdom that comes from God : James Ch3[/u]
[b][u][color="#0000ff"]16][/color][/u] For where envying and contention is, there is inconstancy, and every evil work. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=66&ch=3&l=17#x"][17][/url] But the wisdom, that is from above, first indeed is chaste, then peaceable, modest, easy to be persuaded, consenting to the good, full of mercy and good fruits, without judging, without dissimulation. [[url="http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=66&ch=3&l=17#x"]James 3:17[/url]] [[url="http://drbo.org/x/d?b=lvb&bk=66&ch=3&l=17#x"]Latin[/url]] [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=66&ch=3&l=18#x"][18][/url] And the fruit of justice is sown in peace, to them that make peace. [/b]

And in this I fall down somewhere or other and you also probably. Who, in fact, does not.

Certainly, for myself, I am not perfect in chastity (Loving God alone for Himself alone and neighbour for His Sake). I am not always the most peaceful of persons I dont think. I can fight a battle I consider worth fighting with the best of them, I like to think. I could probably get a tick or to, but not perfection, for modesty. I am certainly not easy to be persuaded as a disposition. I try always to consent to the good, but like St Paul sometimes it is the non good I despise that I find myself doing. I try to be merciful and produce the fruits of goodness, although I am very far from perfect and well aware of this and at time my 'fruits' are anything but that of goodness. I try not to judge, but sometimes fall down in this. I certainly do strive to not feign anything nor be hypocritical - but I know I am not perfect in any good quality or virtue whatsoever, far from it.

Reby, me pal me Joy, conclude what you will, as I think probably you surely will.

God bless you, God bless me and God bless all - we are all brothers and sisters and children of God.


.

Edited October 16, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350358676' post='2493872']

BarbaraTherese,
Let us talk about this later Okay? We will go back on this issue since you are posting some evidences re: Jesus.

Let us go back to our discussion.
[/quote]

........huh.........who me? Nahhh let's not. Well anyway I dont wanna ......... and I wont.

A nun who taught me once ordered me outside the classroom and followed me out. She ordered me to look at her and not laugh. Then she said "You are as bold as brass and as brazen as you are bold". I burst out laughing.
That same nun, I was then Head Prefect, asked me to put $5 into my blazer as someone was stealing money out of our blazers hanging outside our classroom. She said she would take note of who went out of class and then she could narrow down who might be stealing if the $5 disappeared. I refused to do so advising her that in the Our Father, The Pater Noster, we ask God not to lead us into temptation, and I had no intention of doing it either.

I am a woman, reby me friend, and I have a mind of me own - such as it is!

[BarbTherese]

Did it again, duplicate post. My apologies must be wearing quite thin, nevertheless I am sorry!

Edited October 16, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[reyb]

BarbaraTherese,

Do not misinterpreted me when I said ‘I am treating you as a man and not a woman’ because we are talking here of spirituality. I have nothing against third sex but, I want you to judge it yourself what Apostle Paul is saying in 1 Tim 2:11-15

[indent=1]11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing — if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.[/indent]

Now, since you are teaching me about ‘Truth’ as if you are knowledgeable and have the right to speak. I give you a simple test and you failed. You cannot answer if Catholic Church, (including you) knows this ‘secret wisdom’ in 1 Cor 2:7. You are talking too much as if your words will bring salvation to others. How can you be of service to others if after you feed them then you bring them to eternal punishment? Do you think your faith can saved them? How come you learn to convince yourself knowing Jesus Christ since you do not know this secret? Maybe you are thinking, why do you need to know it or what is the sense of knowing it? If that is the case, then do not preach about Jesus because you are giving hope to others but you are still hopeless. How do I know that? I know it since that ‘secret wisdom’ is Jesus Christ himself.

I intentionally did not answer your questions and you can see I did not even question your wrong interpretation about this ‘great apostles’. I let it go although I know that you are wrong. Apostle Paul is not referring to your claim that they are the ‘apostles of Jesus in synoptic gospel’. He is actually referring to false apostles of Christ in 2 Cor 11:13. So, If you really want to be of service to others and to yourself then do not teach because you are a woman. You must be silent otherwise you will bring them to hopeless situation. Let your priest and bishops speaks and you just listen.

This is not about talent or one man’s ability in interpreting the scripture. This is about the Spirit in us. So, if you are really a woman. Then, do not preach and just listen. Now, if you will insist to teach me then, give me your reasons in not listening to Apostle Paul in that verse and let us discuss it first.

This is how I pray for you.

Edited October 16, 2012 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350358126' post='2493867']
Mark,
You said

And then I answered…


And then you post



I know you believe in this coming of Jesus more or 2000 years ago as if you learned it from God. But, you do not get that ‘knowledge’ directly from God himself. You just believe it comes from God. Actually, you learned it from other people, and in turn they learned it too from other believer who were before them. This is what you call tradition.

This is the reason why I said ‘It is your early fathers who said it and not God.
’
[/quote]
Apology in advance!
[img]http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z276/AnimeHorseFreak/Rage%20Faces/rage_face.jpg[/img]
I have this overwhelming desire to strangle you and it's not instigated by satan. I have to accept responsibility that this evil is born out of a desire satisfy my revenge for your attack on all logic, all sensibility and understanding.

To make that allegory clear.. You are so frustrating with your total failure to understand or admit understanding anything that anyone writes. Patience has reached it's limit.

Forget the double posts and double scotch! I need a triple Valium.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350395984' post='2493935']
BarbaraTherese,

Apostle Paul is saying in 1 Tim 2:11-15

[indent=1]11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing — if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.[/indent]


[/quote]

There is no historical Apostle Paul. He is a man who exists in all men and couldn't control his lust so he blamed women instead of himself. Eve didn't sin because she was not witness to Gods command to Adam because God hadn't made her. She did not believe in historical God. She was free to choose but Adam brought man to fallen status because he could not resist Eves temptation. [size=1] (troll face)[/size]

St Pauls letter to the Romans 7:15:18 24:25
For that which I work, I understand not. For I do not that good which I will; [b]but the evil which I hate, that I do[/b]. If then I do that which I will not, I consent to the law, that it is good. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=7&l=17#x"][17][/url] Now then it is no more I that do it,[b] but sin that dwelleth in me.[/b] [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=7&l=18#x"][18][/url] For I know that there dwelleth not in me, that is to say, in my flesh, that which is good. For to will, is present with me;[b] but to accomplish that which is good, I find not.[/b]
Unhappy man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=7&l=25#x"][25][/url] The grace of God, by Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with the mind serve the law of God; but with the flesh, the law of sin.

Historical Saint Paul was a fallen man
historical Jesus was perfect man God incarnate. without defect.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1350349164' post='2493814']


We have three words in Australia that say the same thing, though I wont repeat them. I came to the defence one day of a disabled woman who was being verbally abused from some of those guys that do ride round on motor bikes. One of them looked straight at me (the others looked dumb struck rather) and said "Lady, you have........"
I wasn't too sure what he meant, so later I asked a friend of mine:
"Was he complimenting me or insulting me"
"A bit of both, I think, Barb"

[/quote]
A letter to Historical St. BarbaraTherese
If it's what I think he said. It was quite a complement. To say to man or woman "You got balls!" is associated with courage for some reason even though quite often the ones who don't have Allegorical historical balls are often braver.

And you're Australian? No wonder you're awwsome! Filipinos are awwsome too, Rey. Just spent a couple of weeks there. Beautiful humble people who do it tough. My nephew inlaw arrives home at 11pm and arises to go to work at 4am because of traffic congestion in the city. To go from the airport to his home 50ks during peak took us 4hrs. And most Filipinos make just enough to exist. Nephew inlaw designed processors for Intel. Tried to get him to migrate to Oz, but too dedicated to caring for his widowed mother and siblings. A saint in his own right.

Barb, Rey is Filipino! Rey is short christian name. Can't remember full name and B is first initial of surname. If you hadn't guessed I have memory issues.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1350426112' post='2494070']
A letter to Historical St. BarbaraTherese
If it's what I think he said. It was quite a complement. To say to man or woman "You got balls!" is associated with courage for some reason even though quite often the ones who don't have Allegorical historical balls are often braver.

And you're Australian? No wonder you're awwsome! Filipinos are awwsome too, Rey. Just spent a couple of weeks there. Beautiful humble people who do it tough. My nephew inlaw arrives home at 11pm and arises to go to work at 4am because of traffic congestion in the city. To go from the airport to his home 50ks during peak took us 4hrs. And most Filipinos make just enough to exist. Nephew inlaw designed processors for Intel. Tried to get him to migrate to Oz, but too dedicated to caring for his widowed mother and siblings. A saint in his own right.

Barb, Rey is Filipino! Rey is short christian name. Can't remember full name and B is first initial of surname. If you hadn't guessed I have memory issues.
[/quote]

Thanks Mark. Yeah, he said what you thought he said. I thought thinking of me as male was somewhat insulting, but the tone in which he said it seemed otherwise. Must admit, after the confrontation was over, then I started to tremble. I used to live in a very poor area beset by every sort of social problem one could imagine - much of what did go on there unlawfully (and this was rife!) and quite out in the open, was controlled by those guys who ride motor bikes who always look to me as if they could profit from a good shower with soap. I lived there for thirty years and then the government housing authority who are my landlords shifted me (compulsary shift) to an upmarket quite affluent area altho we do have many migrants here, some of them from the Phillipines. No, I did not guess reybs was fillipino. In the main, I find our migrants very humble and pleasant people. It must be quite fearful to change location so dramatically. I truly miss my old area and after 30 years, I had learnt to live there and it took quite an adjustment - when I first shifted a good friend said I was in culture shock and I think I was too. Eventually, I got to know many teenagers and they were constant visitors.
How I got to know the teenagers was quite funny. Someone had put graffiti all over my rubbish bin. I knew that the teenagers hung out at a house across the crescent from me. So over I went all fired up and told them off good and proper. Next day two teenage girls knocked on my front door to apologize for my rubbish bin. So I asked them in for coffee. Few days later, they came again with a couple of friends. After that, at times I would have anything up to 20 or 30 teenagers at my home. I gave them rules and they kept them - I grew really and truly fond of them or the penalty was they could not come round any more.. They kept the rules at my home anyway - I had no illusions about their behaviour away from me. St Vincent de Paul gave me brand new foam mattresses as rather regularly some would sleep over. Their parents or parent would go off sometimes for days and they would be locked out. I became expert at cooking very large pots of spaghetti bolognese. I loved them. But then they grew up and most all were either in jail, had been there and the girls often were unwed mothers. I always felt that probably any influence I had would only be temporary - but I still hope that as they journey through life and learn their lessons as we all do, things I said to them may come back and my prayer is have some influence perhaps and for good in their lives.
My best friend during my working career was Phillipino. She was a beautiful person. We lost contact when she went to live in a commune in Queensland somewhere and we just gradually lost contact.
Most all our migrants here are very hard working people indeed and of all nationalities. This is why after a while they are doing very well on the financial score - its jolly hard work and sacrifices that get them there. While I was a student, I mixed with Phillipinos, African, middle eastern, Indian - all sorts of nationalities - and what I really did admire was their courage when still hardly speaking English, they went back to school to try to improve themselves. Also, what they have brought with them and gifted to us is a truly multi-cultural atmosphere, including their cuisine. I have just had a really lovely Indian Restaurant opened in the Shopping Centre (Mall) not far from me.
I dont have a vehicle (sold it years ago, too expensive to run) and travel by bus everywhere. Coming back from the city the other day and watching people get onto the bus, all obviously were migrants.

We in Australia learn the American 'lingo' from TV.

Your nephew sounds a truly amazing and totally self-forgetful person and yes absolutely, a saint in his own right. I am convinced that when we get to Heaven we shall be truly amazed to see who is wandering around with our known saints with just as bright a crown on their heads as it were.

Yep, I'm in South AussieLand. An ozzer from downunder. I love the place!


Barb

[BarbTherese]

Reyb - I had regrets last night, because I thought I had been disrespectful to you and for that I apologize. However, my computer kept timing out on Phatmass and in the end I had to abandon attempts to access the site.
Your concepts, your understandings, your perspectives on Scripture interpretation, your beliefs are not only different from, but all totally opposed, to mine. What you post and most all of it is in complete contradiction to what I believe, and at times can be offensive to what I hold as holy and sacred. It has never ever been that I could not answer your questions, it is just that I have refuse to do so. To me, fallible, weak creature that I am, it is a completely futile exercise. Not only this, but you can be very insulting and offensive. This is not our Australian way in the main - and where Australians may offend against this solid feature of our culture, we make tremendous efforts to correct these people and the situations they create. Perhaps we have struck a culture divide.

To my mind, fallible, you are not in the least bit interested in searching honestly for the truth of matters, rather to impose on others your own beliefs and with considerable force including insulting name calling type methods. This is not to debate, it is to lecture and in an authoritiarian vein. I failed, did I? I did so deliberately completely loosing interest in your lectures and your classes, your 'authoritarian big stick weilding', except to be honest for amusement. That is another fault of which I am guilty.

I am never so much surprised at my faults and failings - my stumbles and falls. It is my occasional venture into real virtue that totally amazes me - but at the one and the same time it utterly humbles me to the dust, to the depths, "Lord, what on earth are you doing here, for goodness sake! Have you lost the plot completely?"

Be all this as it may your own absolute sincerity I do not doubt for one second and it truly saddens me that such virtue and commendable zeal and conviction is so misdirected, misplaced.

I truly hope other posters may have some Joy in getting through to you and I am praying so.

I am still trying to prepare for my interstate visitors over the weekend, but to add to my frustrations, my normal helpers for various tasks that need to be done are unable to help me before the weekend. I am now almost 67 and have a back and leg injury from a car accident many years ago and hence physically, I am limited. Doubtless this is adding to my frustrations for normally I am a highly orgnaized person and frustration bubbles up very easily, if my goals are frustrated. My problems with Phatmass last night continually timing out on me, meaning that any posts I tried to post were lost, was probably the icing on my 'Frastration Cake'....... and not dealing well at all with frustration is another fault of mine, of which there are many. I guess that is a disclaimer. I commented to my spiritual director last visit or so that I often rejoice totally with much gratitude and thanksgiving that our Loving Merciful God will be my Judge - and not rather some human beings I know. I thank God too for His Loving Mercy for you also, for your great zeal and conviction truly warms His Heart with Great Love and Embrace - if your zeal and conviction is unknowingly placed and directed wrongly which He would regard as decidedly beside the point.

My daily prayer too will be that you will come to re-embrace your Catholic Faith and the wonderful gift to His Most Least that it is - it is an absolute Joy, a Wondrous Gift of God, to be called to be Catholic. It make the journey of life the greatest adventure a person could live, full of wonder, learning and amazing anecdotes. It is a Holy Gift and a Sacred Gift - a great treasure, the greatest of treasures, and the [u]Pearl[/u] of Great Price indeed. Lord, please hear us! Lord please hear our prayer!

God bless and hold you close, as He does - as He does all.............Barb

Edited October 17, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350395984' post='2493935']
BarbaraTherese,

Do not misinterpreted me when I said ‘I am treating you as a man and not a woman’ because we are talking here of spirituality. I have nothing against third sex but, I want you to judge it yourself what Apostle Paul is saying in 1 Tim 2:11-15



[indent=1]11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing — if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.[/indent]

Now, since you are teaching me about ‘Truth’ as if you are knowledgeable and have the right to speak. I give you a simple test and you failed. You cannot answer if Catholic Church, (including you) knows this ‘secret wisdom’ in 1 Cor 2:7. You are talking too much as if your words will bring salvation to others. How can you be of service to others if after you feed them then you bring them to eternal punishment? Do you think your faith can saved them? How come you learn to convince yourself knowing Jesus Christ since you do not know this secret? Maybe you are thinking, why do you need to know it or what is the sense of knowing it? If that is the case, then do not preach about Jesus because you are giving hope to others but you are still hopeless. How do I know that? I know it since that ‘secret wisdom’ is Jesus Christ himself.

I intentionally did not answer your questions and you can see I did not even question your wrong interpretation about this ‘great apostles’. I let it go although I know that you are wrong. Apostle Paul is not referring to your claim that they are the ‘apostles of Jesus in synoptic gospel’. He is actually referring to false apostles of Christ in 2 Cor 11:13. So, If you really want to be of service to others and to yourself then do not teach because you are a woman. You must be silent otherwise you will bring them to hopeless situation. Let your priest and bishops speaks and you just listen.

This is not about talent or one man’s ability in interpreting the scripture. This is about the Spirit in us. So, if you are really a woman. Then, do not preach and just listen. Now, if you will insist to teach me then, give me your reasons in not listening to Apostle Paul in that verse and let us discuss it first.

This is how I pray for you.
[/quote]




[center][url="http://www.sherv.net/roflmao-emoticon-1324.html"][img]http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/roflmao.gif[/img][/url]
.......... if something strikes one as hilarious, then so it is hilarious. Reyb, me man, you are so far off the mark in all statements they are absolutely hilarious to me, funny. Offensive and insulting - but funny.[/center]
("sin" is from the Greek and translates "to miss the mark" incidentally) ..............
[b] [/b]

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350395984' post='2493935']
BarbaraTherese,

Do not misinterpreted me when I said ‘I am treating you as a man and not a woman’ because we are talking here of spirituality. I have nothing against third sex but, I want you to judge it yourself what Apostle Paul is saying in 1 Tim 2:11-15



[indent=1]11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing — if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.[/indent]

Now, since you are teaching me about ‘Truth’ as if you are knowledgeable and have the right to speak. I give you a simple test and you failed. You cannot answer if Catholic Church, (including you) knows this ‘secret wisdom’ in 1 Cor 2:7. You are talking too much as if your words will bring salvation to others. How can you be of service to others if after you feed them then you bring them to eternal punishment? Do you think your faith can saved them? How come you learn to convince yourself knowing Jesus Christ since you do not know this secret? Maybe you are thinking, why do you need to know it or what is the sense of knowing it? If that is the case, then do not preach about Jesus because you are giving hope to others but you are still hopeless. How do I know that? I know it since that ‘secret wisdom’ is Jesus Christ himself.

I intentionally did not answer your questions and you can see I did not even question your wrong interpretation about this ‘great apostles’. I let it go although I know that you are wrong. Apostle Paul is not referring to your claim that they are the ‘apostles of Jesus in synoptic gospel’. He is actually referring to false apostles of Christ in 2 Cor 11:13. So, If you really want to be of service to others and to yourself then do not teach because you are a woman. You must be silent otherwise you will bring them to hopeless situation. Let your priest and bishops speaks and you just listen.

This is not about talent or one man’s ability in interpreting the scripture. This is about the Spirit in us. So, if you are really a woman. Then, do not preach and just listen. Now, if you will insist to teach me then, give me your reasons in not listening to Apostle Paul in that verse and let us discuss it first.

This is how I pray for you.
[/quote]




[center][url="http://www.sherv.net/roflmao-emoticon-1324.html"][img]http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/roflmao.gif[/img][/url]
.......... if something strikes one as hilarious, then so it is hilarious. Reyb, me man, you are so far off the mark in all statements they are absolutely hilarious to me, funny. Offensive and insulting - but funny.[/center]
("sin" is from the Greek and translates "to miss the mark" incidentally) ..............
[b] [/b]

[BarbTherese]

It did it again and I got a duplicate post - sorry!
Between this computer, Phatmass and dear reby, I need a shot of brandy and ........ a triple valium.
It's only on Phatmass that this happens - that the page times out before it looks as if I have posted. Or it takes me ages to actually access Phatmass at all with the page continually timing out. I have no problems whatsoever on Catholic Answers for some reason, nor any problems with any other site on the net. If I were superstitious I would be thinking I was getting messages.

To any who have sent me a friendship request. I can't find out how to send to you a friendship request of my own - when I can actually access my profile that is. As soon as things settle down, if they do, I will be sending out friendship requests of my own; meanwhile, if anyone knows how to actually send out a friendship request, how to access the link - a step by step guide either into this thread or via PM would be much appreciated.

[BarbTherese]

It did it again and I got a duplicate post - sorry!
Between this computer, Phatmass and dear reby, I need a shot of brandy and ........ a triple valium.
It's only on Phatmass that this happens - that the page times out before it looks as if I have posted. Or it takes me ages to actually access Phatmass at all with the page continually timing out. I have no problems whatsoever on Catholic Answers for some reason, nor any problems with any other site on the net. If I were superstitious I would be thinking I was getting messages.

To any who have sent me a friendship request. I can't find out how to send to you a friendship request of my own - when I can actually access my profile that is. As soon as things settle down, if they do, I will be sending out friendship requests of my own; meanwhile, if anyone knows how to actually send out a friendship request, how to access the link - a step by step guide either into this thread or via PM would be much appreciated.