Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

[BarbTherese]

Quoting reyb in all instances

[b]reyb - I said I am not Gnostic like Marcion because I do not know Marcion or I never read any of his letters. I am not aware too if Gnostics are intentionally hiding any particular knowledge or not though it can be shared thus, I do not belong to them since I am not hiding anything from you.[/b]

Barb - I am not expert, reyb - far from that. However, from what you state above, your knowledge sounds like what we call "gnostic knowledge" in that it is some sort of secret individual knowledge revealed to a person (to you in this instance) and contradicting what we believe or what The Catholic Church teaches. You seem to be one person only (altho I have my doubts) and we are billions all in all. - what I mean is that when I state what "we" believe I can confidently state that there are billions who believe the same thing as I and probaly most on Phatmass Phorum as well, being a Catholic discussion site. We are united and one in what we hold as doctrine and dogma, Faith and Morals. I think it is billions, as I said, no expert and an 'armchair' everything. What 'armchair' means is that I have no expert knowledge in any area at all. Ah well, if we are not billions this year, we certainly are millions.

[b]But let me clarify things because it seems you are telling us that the ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 2:6-7 is not hidden to Catholics. Actually, if it is true then you cannot see me writing like this since we have nothing to talk about. I know you believed in your traditions that Apostle Paul belongs to your group and worshipping God thru that same Jesus Christ which now I called ‘historical Jesus Christ’. But I want to tell you why I do not agree.[/b]

I do [u][b]suspect [/b][/u]however, that you are not just one person - that you belong to a group of people. I chat now and then with some people in my area which has many migrants.


[b]The one I called ‘historical Jesus Christ’ is your Jesus in Catholics’ salvation history. I hope it is very clear now. You can see how easy to share your Jesus from one man to another. Just two of you come together, one is sharing the other is listening and at once, if both is willing it can be shared easily. You see how easily we can understand each other regarding this Jesus we are now talking about.[/b]

Wow reyb! Nothing at all is clear. You might claim that you know why it is not clear to us, this is not necessarily so. Only your word for it.
You are coming into this thread and stating what you state and asking us to believe it with no other authority but your own interpretation which contradicts the Catholic interpretation! In other words, you are doing what you accuse us of doing


[b]But I am telling in this forum many times that there is another Jesus which is still hidden from you and that is the Jesus Apostle Paul is truly saying and not your historical Jesus. You said I need to tell you who is that ‘other Jesus’ and just like I said before. Your request is not possible because only God can reveal him. I am not lying to you. It cannot be shared by anyone even if a true witness is willing. Thus, this whole ‘sharing thing’ is termed by Apostle Paul, ‘foolishness of God’ in 1 Cor 1:25. A willing witness who cannot share what he saw and a willing listener who cannot understand what he is sharing and a God who says proclaim it because I want all of you to be saved. To make it clearer to you, even all of us come together – all of us in heaven and on earth come together as one in sharing and listening to each other. We cannot reveal Him because only God can do it. That is how, ‘How foolish it is’. Thus Apostle Paul said (1 Cor 1:25) ‘For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom,[/b]

Again, you can present no other authority but your own for your interpretation stating that it is a private revelation to you from God (altho I suspect you are not alone). And your private revelation is in contradiction to our Catholic beliefs.
It is no use, I fear, me quoting from Scripture - in fact no use at all - and presenting our understanding to contradict your own. Because you keep on giving your interpretation with no other authority but your own private? interpretation - and in contradiction to what The Church teaches us is the actual and rightful interpretation. We have expert Scripture Scholars and theologians who advise our Magisterium, while the Holy Father has the final say or casting vote. As I said, this thread is merely a circle. Round and round and round and then let's go around again!
How can you say that God has not spoken to any of us? You do not know, neither do I insofar as us posters on Pham are concerned. If, for example,The Lord had spoken to any Catholic, then if what The Lord stated was in contradiction to our doctrine and dogma, our Faith and our Morals, then we can be assured that it wasn't The Lord who was speaking and we are very confident of that. And Jesus Christ is Lord, truly human, truly Divine, and to the Glory of God The Father through The Holy Spirit. Three Persons One God.

[b]But I see a way how can I come into your heart. I will share my love to you by showing you your fault. I know you will get mad at me. But still, I will share my Lord to you. [/b]

Woops, your knowledge has let you down again since I am not mad and neverhave been for the course of this thread. Not at all mad, reyb, nor angry nor the slightest disturbed. Rather frankly, I am laughing - while it all strikes me on another level as quite sad nonethless. Altho loving will bring you right into my heart as I love you, reyb, unconditionally. We are just having problems understanding each other because your beliefs are contradicting my own and you have no other authority for what you say but yourself and your own interpretation of The Bible.

God bless us all and keep us always in His Love. - Loving Him and our neighbour for His Sake and treating others with love, care and concern for their wellbeing - and despite all things. Amen. After all, Scripture tells us, as does our common sense, that He sends His rain and his sunshine on good and not good alike, and without discrimination.

[reyb]

BarbaraTherese,


I said the word ‘us’ because I am not alone in having the Spirit of Christ and so, it is not proper to use the word ‘me’ and besides there are other people who may think the same thing like mine – i.e. questioning whether the ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul is hidden in Catholics or not. Since you are questioning that word ‘us’ or suspecting I am today are with ‘others’ as we are a group of people trying to hide something and planning unpleasant things against Catholics. I will change it.

Okay.

But let me clarify things because it seems you are telling[i] me[/i] that the ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 2:6-7 is not hidden to Catholics. Actually, if it is true then you cannot see me writing like this since we have nothing to talk about. I know you believed in your traditions that Apostle Paul belongs to your group and worshipping God thru that same Jesus Christ which now I called ‘historical Jesus Christ’. But I want to tell you why I do not agree.

Now, my question is this. Is that ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 2:6-7 is still hidden from Catholics or not.?

Edited October 15, 2012 by reyb

[BarbTherese]

Quoting reyb in all instances:

[b]This is the problem for many Catholics. You are not reading the scripture carefully and scrutinize you belief based on truth and reality. You do not learn how to judge yourself properly and treat other people like yourself. All of us are just ‘believers’. Do not treat others as Satan just because they are against your group. Otherwise, you are Satan too in their eyes since you do not belong to their group.[/b]

Huh huh! unless I misunderstand you........ "all of us" so you are not alone in your beliefs, if I have read you right. So this special type 'knowledge' is shared with others?
I think it very harsh and judgemental to state that others are being treated as satanic because they are against Catholicism. If a Catholic is so doing simply because they hold contrary beliefs to Catholic beliefs, then they are acting quite wrongfully and contrary to what The Church teaches us. Also, Jesus has told us "love your enemies and do goot to those that persecute you". Persecution can take many forms major and minor. Mmmm, interesting - what does this mean "otherwise, you are satan too in their eyes since you do not belong to their group"?
Also, reyb, again it is only on your own personal authority that you think that we are not reading Scripture carefully - and simply because we cannot accept what you state on your own authority only.

[b]In your post, it is not God who teach you and propagate the story of Jesus. I will say it again because I want you to understand me better. It is not God himself who tells you that ‘the historical realization of the coming of Christ more or less 2000 years ago is authentic and true’. It is your early fathers who said it and not God. It is not even Apostle Paul who tells them about this coming of historical Jesus otherwise he will never mention another Jesus in his letter. It is not even synoptic Gospel writer like Luke who tell them about historical Jesus since he already said in the beginning of his letter that it is just a 'narration' or a 'story' to ponder and not a 'historical event' which you will just accept to be true without seeing its trace in physical realities.[/b]

More of your interpretation, reyb. It contradicts what The Catholic Church teaches us and therefore I cannot believe it one little bit, not at all one little bit. What is more, it is quite offensive to me to state what you have above. Quite offensive. In this free democratic country, Australia (I am in South Australia), we hold that we should respect all beliefs, providing those beliefs etc. are not hurtful to themselves.....nor to others. Not only this, it is against forum rules - and I have already posted the forum rules link in a previous post.

[b]Again, it is not Satan who tells you that the Roman Catholic Church is evil. They are people who are against your [/b][b]Your group really misunderstood Prophet Muhammad (By the way, I will tell you in advance although I am not yet ready to discuss things about the Holy Qu’ran, that Prophet Muhammad is a true prophet of God. He is a Christian too like Apostle Paul). Let us discuss it later.[/b]

Well, I certainly have great respect for those of the Islaamic faith expression and for their beliefs, although there are branches that claim Islaamic profession that give me real problems indeed. But then probably all faith expressions have their various extreme branches some of which can hold very strange beliefs etc.

[b]Now why me?


It is written, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy , and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Therefore, only God can answer your question because everything and every reason I will make will just become lips service since He alone has the reason in choosing among us.[/b]

I can agree on that. Can I take it that this is the reason you are proposing as the reason Jesus was crucified? Because God indeed will have Mercy on whomsoever He Wills and Compassion on whomsoever He has Compassion. I can accept that for sure - and not in those words, it has been stated previously in this thread, although it is of course a general reason why Jesus was crucified, but not the particular reason. But to date, you have accepted no reasons put forward, other than your own which you are yet to share with us.

[b]Maybe I acted in ignorance in trying to reach the unreachable wisdom of God. Maybe, I give my best in trying to understand their testimony although I cannot make it. Maybe, I put myself in other’s self as if I am not myself in dealing with me. Maybe, I learn to judge myself with all honesty. Maybe, I tried my best to be good although I am not good. Maybe, I angered him when I said ‘it is better for you to take me now since I cannot know you’. Maybe, I am poor and feeling useless. Maybe, because I am not a priest. Maybe, I am lonely and full of problems although my problem is me. Maybe, I am asking everything although I should not ask anything. Maybe, when I say ‘Father, forgive me because I am not your son’. Maybe, I am crying but I should be happy. All reasons I can think are all maybe’s because He alone can answer your question. [/b]

You sound very unhappy, reyb, very. If you are in some sort of personal suffering then I do hope and pray that it will soon be resolved and you will be in Peace and Joy - and happy. I will be keeping you in prayer. Please keep me and all in your own.

[b]Now, I know how you can you see Him. Just follow the instructions of our dear Apostle Paul and He will come because the two men dressed in white said[/b]

[indent=1][b]"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.[/b][/indent]

[b]This is just a story but this coming means for all eternity. He comes just once but seen by many at different times and in different generations of humanity and those who saw him first will see him last.

Now, if you do not believe me. What can I do?
Anyway, Mark thank you for your previous post.[/b]

Apologies, Mark for butting in on a post to you.
AS I said in another post, reyb. I do not doubt you are absolutely sincere about what you believe, hence I do not doubt your personal integrity re those beliefs. I personally cannot hold to your beliefs because they are contrary to what The Catholic Church teaches and with God's Grace, I hope very much to live and to die a faithful member of The Catholic Church.

I must go again. Busy week with interstate visitors overnight next weekend.

God bless us all, please. Ava good day or night wherever you are in our world. Amen.

[BarbTherese]

Apologies. I have many problems posting on Phatmass for some reason, the least of which is my very slow computer.

What I wanted to add to my previous post is this:

[size=5]Also, early pagan historians, did mention Jesus. Hence He is certainly historical - a man (who is also God) who lived and breathed and walked and talked on our earth some 2000 odd years ago. You will find a list of them here [url="http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/documents/Historical%20evidence%20on%20the%20exhistance%20of%20Jesus.htm"][color="#0f72da"]http://www.agapebibl...ce of Jesus.htm[/color][/url][/size]
[size=5]Jesus died by crucifixion and three days later He rose from the dead as he had prophesied. [/size]

Edited October 15, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350297848' post='2493599']
BarbaraTherese,


I said the word ‘us’ because I am not alone in having the Spirit of Christ and so, it is not proper to use the word ‘me’ and besides there are other people who may think the same thing like mine – i.e. questioning whether the ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul is hidden in Catholics or not. Since you are questioning that word ‘us’ or suspecting I am today are with ‘others’ as we are a group of people trying to hide something and planning unpleasant things against Catholics. I will change it.

Okay.

But let me clarify things because it seems you are telling[i] me[/i] that the ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 2:6-7 is not hidden to Catholics. Actually, if it is true then you cannot see me writing like this since we have nothing to talk about. I know you believed in your traditions that Apostle Paul belongs to your group and worshipping God thru that same Jesus Christ which now I called ‘historical Jesus Christ’. But I want to tell you why I do not agree.

Now, my question is this. Is that ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 2:6-7 is still hidden from Catholics or not.?
[/quote]

My very real apologies, reyb. More questions! I simply find your concepts, most all of them, unbelievable presented as they are on your authority only. Other than this, on matters of doctrine and dogma, Faith and Morals, I accept no other authority but that of The Catholic Church. And with The Lord's help I hope to do so for the rest of days until death. Amen.
Posting has taken up much time, mine and I am sure yours as well. I am afraid I just dont have the time available to read, think and post, any more. I have a busy week ahead of me and then interstate visitors for the weekend next weekend. I must get into my pots and pans, dig out recipes, plan shopping, then effect shopping, ensure linen and the house generally is spic and span. Inbetween this, I work part time for a charity and have other commitments including prayer times during the day when I am at home.

I can hardly believe that I sat down at this computer at 8.30pm and that it is now 10.14pm!!!!

God bless, reyb - I wish you well and God's richest blessings in every way and will be keeping you in daily prayer. Please keep me in your prayers.

Au revoir!.............Barb, South Aussie

[reyb]

BarbaraTherese,

I really find it amusing to discuss with a woman maybe because I know that woman is designed by God not to preach but only to listen and therefore, even there is error in her belief I was weaken by her love and sincerity. But women nowadays are use not only to listen but also to preach and I am now just thinking, is it possible to consider them as a man rather than a woman?

You yourself admit Catholics are now running in billions and that is true. It is simply mean you must take note of what you are preaching since you are now bringing billions of soul in front of the judgment seat of God without giving them hope to see the light. How do I know that? As we go along our discussion I will show it to you.

Yes, I am alone today and I am aware of it but I have with me their confirmation – the letters of witnesses who are before me and that is my strength why I am too eager to be heard. You said I have no authority whatsoever. So, from whom such authority must from - from your Church or from God?

If your Church's authority truly comes from God then, is that ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul no longer hidden to Catholics? I am not yet asking what is that ‘secret wisdom’. I am just asking if that secret is known to Catholics or not. This is the reason why I said, let me clarify things since it seems Catholics is claiming having it but still I am accused of being a Gnostic. If I am a Gnostic you must bring Apostle Paul with me since he too knows that ‘secret ’. Then, all of us (excluding you of course) are Gnostics. If I have a secret it is beyond my control to reveal it. Only the Spirit of God can do it. Thus, I said I am not hiding anything.

You are very loving but very suspicious. If your love is true then trust me as I trust you. Thank you in praying for me but, I will wait for your answer because you must clarify it. Again, Is this 'secret wisdom' Apostle Paul is saying no longer hidden to Catholic Church?

Edited October 15, 2012 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350265584' post='2493489']
This is the problem for many Catholics. You are not reading the scripture carefully and scrutinize you belief based on truth and reality. You do not learn how to judge yourself properly and treat other people like yourself. All of us are just ‘believers’. [b]Do not treat others as Satan just because they are against your group.[/b] Otherwise, you are Satan too in their eyes since you do not belong to their group.
[/quote]

You have mistaken or changed what I wrote. I have never accused [b]you[/b] as serving satan for your beliefs. I am saying that satan waits for the unwary to lead you away. The ones I accuse of serving satan are the ones that make [u]malicious attacks[/u] on the Church for the purpose of hurt and deterrence of other people. If you had been paying attention you would notice that I do not condemn other non Catholics, particularly main stream religions.


[quote]
In your post, it is not God who teach you and propagate the story of Jesus. I will say it again because I want you to understand me better. It is not God himself who tells you that ‘the historical realization of the coming of Christ more or less 2000 years ago is authentic and true’.


[/quote]
[b]No! you are wrong.[/b] Very wrong! What tells me Jesus is true is written in my signature
[color=#800080][i]My messages are always your [u]highest thought, your clearest word, your grandest feeling[/u]. [b]Anything less is from another source![/b][/i] God[/color]
The story of Jesus and his teachings are my highest thought, my clearest words and my[b] GRANDEST FEELINGS![/b]
Only God is good. All goodness comes from God. In my heart I hear God say this pure good doctrine of Jesus is truth! You say "Imagination that I hear God??" God says "Would that make a difference?" God made me in his image he created me! Therefore my good thoughts [u]are his[/u]. My bad thoughts are[u] my wrong choices. [/u]So God can just as easily communicate to me through my imagination as any other method.

[quote]

It is your early fathers who said it and not God. It is not even Apostle Paul who tells them about this coming of historical Jesus otherwise he will never mention another Jesus in his letter. It is not even synoptic Gospel writer like Luke who tell them about historical Jesus since he already said in the beginning of his letter that it is just a 'narration' or a 'story' to ponder and not a 'historical event' which you will just accept to be true without seeing its trace in physical realities.
[/quote]
Apostle Paul was born 5AD if I got my facts right. So he was no more a witness to Jesus than anyone. He believed and converted because he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to propagate the doctrine of Jesus. Because like many he could see that Jesus doctrine could have only come from God. No mere prophet could teach such profound wisdom in such a fallen evil and violent world. Apostle Paul spread the good news as he heard it from the witnesses of the historical Jesus. How can have so much faith in St. Paul and yet not see that???

[quote]Again, it is not Satan who tells you that the Roman Catholic Church is evil. They are people who are against your Church. [/quote]
Only God is good! Evil comes from satan. The people who say evil against the Church serve satan. Humans do not create good or evil they choose to follow one or the other.


[quote]Your group really misunderstood Prophet Muhammad (By the way, I will tell you in advance although I am not yet ready to discuss things about the Holy Qu’ran, that Prophet Muhammad is a true prophet of God. He is a Christian too like Apostle Paul). Let us discuss it later.[/quote]
Lets discuss this now because I'm sure my answer will come as a shock. [b]There is possibly some truth in what you say.[/b]
Okay,[u] my take! no qualification to write this. [/u]
The people of Muhammad were nomadic barbaric people who worshiped false gods, they were polytheists. Moh brought Islam to the one true God of Abraham and the Abrahamic teachings. This was good because it was a move in the right direction. Only God is good, therefore i believe there is every possibility that Moh was inspired by God and was a prophet! However Moh was just a man, unlike Jesus who was God incarnate (perfect man) Moh was fallen and because his peoples traditions believed in the subjugation of women and polygamy! And the violent oppression of any who opposed. Moh fell to the lies of satan and excised the doctrine of Jesus Christ from the faith simply because it did not suit what he desired. He may have very well have also fallen to sexual temptation, but then if there is truth in a doco. I recently watched both St Paul and St. Augustine struggled with their sexual desires and thoughts. Artists depicted the serpent as a woman being the greatest tempter to sin. The removal of Jesus from the faith brought it to the level of error of Judaism, but still with enough truth to survive. But like that stone that is thrown into the air and falls back, truth, what is written in the heart prevails. Many modern Muslims reject that subjugation of women (especially the liberated women) They also reject the violence and terror done by extremists. They find that as embarrassing and hurtful as we find hurtful the news of paedophilia and attempts to cover it. Unbeknown to them the have moved toward the doctrine of Jesus Christ. That is why the Catholic Church accepts them as our beloved brothers and sisters.



[quote]Now why me?


It is written, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy , and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Therefore, only God can answer your question because everything and every reason I will make will just become lips service since He alone has the reason in choosing among us.[/quote]
I don't need to hear you. I can receive real truth from truth through the tool that God himself made to teach. The Church and it's faithful followers, my friends at PM.

[quote]Maybe I acted in ignorance in trying to reach the unreachable wisdom of God. Maybe, I give my best in trying to understand their testimony although I cannot make it. Maybe, I put myself in other’s self as if I am not myself in dealing with me. Maybe, I learn to judge myself with all honesty. Maybe, I tried my best to be good although I am not good. Maybe, I angered him when I said ‘it is better for you to take me now since I cannot know you’. Maybe, I am poor and feeling useless. Maybe, because I am not a priest. Maybe, I am lonely and full of problems although my problem is me. Maybe, I am asking everything although I should not ask anything. Maybe, when I say ‘Father, forgive me because I am not your son’. Maybe, I am crying but I should be happy. All reasons I can think are all maybe’s because He alone can answer your question. [/quote]
I do not not judge you Rey. If you were to die today I believe that there is every possibility that you will attain Paradise. I see sincerity and genuine honesty in you. I prefer to see that rather than any defect.



[quote]Now, if you do not believe me. What can I do?
Anyway, Mark thank you for your previous post.[/quote]
You're welcome! I hope this post is of some use to you and others.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350306281' post='2493615']
BarbaraTherese,

I really find it amusing to discuss with a woman maybe because I know that woman is designed by God not to preach but only to listen and therefore, even there is error in her belief I was weaken by her love and sincerity.
[/quote]
Very wrong! In the eyes of God there is no subjugation of woman. God made man and woman as two which become one. Many of the female posters here are more qualified and make better prophets than many of the men. Personally as I have indicated I have been awed at BTs responses. You and I both would maybe do better to listen to her than our own interpretations.

[BarbTherese]

God love you, reyb - as He does, I just cannot take you seriously any more. Far too 'over the top' for moi! Dont be disturbed, I tis only the merest of females.
"Gnostic" is not an accusation by Catholics in general and certainly not The Catholic Church directed by these to you personally. It is merely a word I used to describe how I view your personal revelation and understandings in that it is a personal revelation to you contradicting what The Catholic Church teaches. Dont get tied up in knots about it, after all I am only a mere woman. Oh I know a joke about that! God created man and then He created woman and man has known nothing but woe ever since.
The interesting thing to me about Adam and Eve is that the serpent, satan, and the most intelligent of all the angels it seems decided to tempt Eve. Methinks it's superior intelligence thought that it would take great intelligene to get to a woman, while it would only take a woman to get to a man. And the jolly thing was absolutely right! It's a joke, fellas! Though single and celibate and privately vowed, I still have an admiring eye for the male of the species and often his intelligence too, far far superior to mine for sure. I sometimes say to The Lord "Dear Lord, I take off my hat to You because that sure is one fine example of your creative powers!" I have a few guys whose company I really appreciate. True most of them (not all) are celibate and vowed themselves, and the best of friends and jolly good company over a cuppa and bikkies - that is, biscuits........not the guys that ride round on motor bikes ").

This did catch my eye, reyb and I had to laugh : "[b]is it possible to consider them as a man rather than a woman[/b]"-

We have three words in Australia that say the same thing, though I wont repeat them. I came to the defence one day of a disabled woman who was being verbally abused from some of those guys that do ride round on motor bikes. One of them looked straight at me (the others looked dumb struck rather) and said "Lady, you have........"
I wasn't too sure what he meant, so later I asked a friend of mine:
"Was he complimenting me or insulting me"
"A bit of both, I think, Barb"

I have been wondering/suspicious (what after all IS in a name?) about you for quite some time, reby. I have been reading your posts in this and other threads without posting myself and wondered where your concepts (when I could work out what you were on about) were all coming from. Simply yourself, or did you belong to a certain faith profession/religion. Don't get tied up in knots about it, merely female curiosity going for a walk.

Thank you and sincerely for the compliment, Mark. How about writing to my psychiatrist for me? (joke!)

Edited October 16, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Duplicate .........again!

Edited October 16, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1350341243' post='2493775']
You have mistaken or changed what I wrote. I have never accused [b]you[/b] as serving satan for your beliefs. I am saying that satan waits for the unwary to lead you away. The ones I accuse of serving satan are the ones that make [u]malicious attacks[/u] on the Church for the purpose of hurt and deterrence of other people. If you had been paying attention you would notice that I do not condemn other non Catholics, particularly main stream religions.



[b]No! you are wrong.[/b] Very wrong! What tells me Jesus is true is written in my signature
[color=#800080][i]My messages are always your [u]highest thought, your clearest word, your grandest feeling[/u]. [b]Anything less is from another source![/b][/i] God[/color]
The story of Jesus and his teachings are my highest thought, my clearest words and my[b] GRANDEST FEELINGS![/b]
Only God is good. All goodness comes from God. In my heart I hear God say this pure good doctrine of Jesus is truth! You say "Imagination that I hear God??" God says "Would that make a difference?" God made me in his image he created me! Therefore my good thoughts [u]are his[/u]. My bad thoughts are[u] my wrong choices. [/u]So God can just as easily communicate to me through my imagination as any other method.


Apostle Paul was born 5AD if I got my facts right. So he was no more a witness to Jesus than anyone. He believed and converted because he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to propagate the doctrine of Jesus. Because like many he could see that Jesus doctrine could have only come from God. No mere prophet could teach such profound wisdom in such a fallen evil and violent world. Apostle Paul spread the good news as he heard it from the witnesses of the historical Jesus. How can have so much faith in St. Paul and yet not see that???


Only God is good! Evil comes from satan. The people who say evil against the Church serve satan. Humans do not create good or evil they choose to follow one or the other.



Lets discuss this now because I'm sure my answer will come as a shock. [b]There is possibly some truth in what you say.[/b]
Okay,[u] my take! no qualification to write this. [/u]
The people of Muhammad were nomadic barbaric people who worshiped false gods, they were polytheists. Moh brought Islam to the one true God of Abraham and the Abrahamic teachings. This was good because it was a move in the right direction. Only God is good, therefore i believe there is every possibility that Moh was inspired by God and was a prophet! However Moh was just a man, unlike Jesus who was God incarnate (perfect man) Moh was fallen and because his peoples traditions believed in the subjugation of women and polygamy! And the violent oppression of any who opposed. Moh fell to the lies of satan and excised the doctrine of Jesus Christ from the faith simply because it did not suit what he desired. He may have very well have also fallen to sexual temptation, but then if there is truth in a doco. I recently watched both St Paul and St. Augustine struggled with their sexual desires and thoughts. Artists depicted the serpent as a woman being the greatest tempter to sin. The removal of Jesus from the faith brought it to the level of error of Judaism, but still with enough truth to survive. But like that stone that is thrown into the air and falls back, truth, what is written in the heart prevails. Many modern Muslims reject that subjugation of women (especially the liberated women) They also reject the violence and terror done by extremists. They find that as embarrassing and hurtful as we find hurtful the news of paedophilia and attempts to cover it. Unbeknown to them the have moved toward the doctrine of Jesus Christ. That is why the Catholic Church accepts them as our beloved brothers and sisters.




I don't need to hear you. I can receive real truth from truth through the tool that God himself made to teach. The Church and it's faithful followers, my friends at PM.


I do not not judge you Rey. If you were to die today I believe that there is every possibility that you will attain Paradise. I see sincerity and genuine honesty in you. I prefer to see that rather than any defect.




You're welcome! I hope this post is of some use to you and others.
[/quote]

Really well stated and balanced post in my opinion.

[BarbTherese]

[b]Apostle Paul was born 5AD if I got my facts right. So he was no more a witness to Jesus than anyone. He believed and converted because he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to propagate the doctrine of Jesus. Because like many he could see that Jesus doctrine could have only come from God. No mere prophet could teach such profound wisdom in such a fallen evil and violent world. Apostle Paul spread the good news as he heard it from the witnesses of the historical Jesus. How can have so much faith in St. Paul and yet not see that???[/b]



The story of Paul is fascinating. He is at the time persecuring Christians, murdering them. He was a Roman Jew, if memory serves as sometimes it certainly does not. Paul is struck to the ground as he is on the road headed for Damascus - and then has a conversation with Jesus who speaks to Him long after His Death and Resurrection. His story is here : [url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/51009.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/51009.htm[/url]
The Acts of The Apostles makes fascinating reading.

Certainly St Peter, Head of The Church at the time, and St Paul had a big argument over a point of discipline. Paul won incidentally and Peter did agree that Paul was right in this instance (Peter as Head of The Church then had the casting vote) and as a result of that and the casting vote decision, the disciplinary matter was settled as fact - and we gentiles can thank The Lord for His Apostle and missionary, St Paul. - the story is in the Acts of The Apostles. Although there was to be much unrest over all the gentiles (all non Jewish people)also being called by God to be amongst the chosen and this did cause problems in the early Church......arguments, more arguments and then even more arguments! This does reflect how our Catholic Bishops, our Scripture Scholars and Theologians and others who advise our heirarchy can disagree with each other, but The Holy Father, The Pope, always has the casting vote. We Christians have argued since the time of the Apostles of Jesus, who had arguments amongst themselves back then too. Back then, Jesus of course settled matters. He had the casting vote naturally. Nothing new in Christians arguing and the 'pattern' was set from the very beginning, although Paul has much to say about the marks or fruits, evidence or how to identify that Wisdom that comes from God. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=66&ch=3&l=17#x"]http://www.drbo.org/...=66&ch=3&l=17#x[/url] It is only a quite short chapter.
I am always moved by the tone of our encyclicals, documents etc. that do come out of Rome and our Magisterium and The Holy Father - putting aside just for this moment WHAT they have to say, what moves me with Joy also is how what they have to say is said. The tone of the Documents - Wisdom from God indeed and evidenced by their 'mood' or tone, the frame of mind and disposition of the writers.

I quite often pray for a similar spirit of great Love of God and neighbour, humilty,and clarity of expression when I write (I am a prolific writer) not that I have ever even nearly approached it. But then Jesus told us that our prayers are always answered and to knock and we shall receive. He didn't tell us how long we would have to knock however just to keep knocking and praying in quiet trustful confidence. And I further reason that God always knows best and is a Loving Father who would not give his child a scorpion when they ask for food. And sometimes my requests and petitions (without me being aware) and if God actually granted them, would IN ACTUALITY be like a person who gives a child a scorpion when what they desire and need is food. I only THINK I know what is good for me and others - and when I THINK, it can get risky even dangerous. Then I further reason that all my many mistakes and failures stumbles and falls, do serve to keep me in my place interiorly, if nothing else does ............... and doesn't!!!

[Edit:; Paul does really agonize and agonize with himself before he is given audience with Peter in order to confront him over the point of discipline. I really felt sorry for him reading it. I have often agonized myself over some important upcoming discussion with someone who is my superior In Scripture, there are many incidents in both the Old and New Testament that are funny if one allows one's imagination to present a picture of what happened. In another place in Acts, to escape from the Jews who are planning to kill Paul, some disciples lower him out a window in a basket :). That is a funny image. And in the Old Testament, we have one of the prophets trying to run (as the prophets often did) from the task God had given them. One of them jumped into a well to hide and so God sent an angel to take him by the hair and pull him out. Our poor prophets, most of them were persecuted if not murdered for carrying out their task from God. And some of these stories of how they tried to run are funny if the imagination runs over them. There is dear Jonah too of course, who gets kicked off the ship in which he is trying to run from God and God's taks for him - and lands in the belly of a whale!!! :) Another funny tale. God is Great and indeed He is Supremely Good! .....and has a sense of humour!]

Edited October 16, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1350341243' post='2493775']
You have mistaken or changed what I wrote. I have never accused [b]you[/b] as serving satan for your beliefs. I am saying that satan waits for the unwary to lead you away. The ones I accuse of serving satan are the ones that make [u]malicious attacks[/u] on the Church for the purpose of hurt and deterrence of other people. If you had been paying attention you would notice that I do not condemn other non Catholics, particularly main stream religions.
[/quote]


Mark I will repeat what you just said. I know you did not say that I am serving Satan. I know it. Okay?
This is what you just said.

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1350252461' post='2493387']

For 2000 years God has been telling people that the gospel of Jesus is a lie and to not listen and the Catholic Church is evil. Except that it is not God it is the liar and deceiver which is satan.

[/quote]


and then I said,

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350265584' post='2493489']

All of us are just ‘believers’. Do not treat others as Satan just because they are against your group. Otherwise, you are Satan too in their eyes since you do not belong to their group.
[/quote]

What I am saying it this: It is not Satan who said that your Church is evil. They are ‘people’ who do not belong to your Group but also ‘believers’ like us for example Muslims or whatever religious group. Thus, I said ‘Do not treat others as Satan just because they are against your group.

Let us call all things in proper order.

Edited October 16, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

Mark,
You said
[quote]
Can you explain why God would teach and propagate the story of Jesus and his love for us for 2k years and then ask you, who no one will believe, to tell the world that it is all a lie?
[/quote]
And then I answered…
[quote]
In your post, it is not God who teach you and propagate the story of Jesus. I will say it again because I want you to understand me better. It is not God himself who tells you that ‘the historical realization of the coming of Christ more or less 2000 years ago is authentic and true’. It is your early fathers who said it and not God.

[/quote]

And then you post
[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1350341243' post='2493775']
[b]No! you are wrong.[/b] Very wrong! What tells me Jesus is true is written in my signature
[color=#800080][i]My messages are always your [u]highest thought, your clearest word, your grandest feeling[/u]. [b]Anything less is from another source![/b][/i] God[/color]
The story of Jesus and his teachings are my highest thought, my clearest words and my[b] GRANDEST FEELINGS![/b]
Only God is good. All goodness comes from God. In my heart I hear God say this pure good doctrine of Jesus is truth! You say "Imagination that I hear God??" God says "Would that make a difference?" God made me in his image he created me! Therefore my good thoughts [u]are his[/u]. My bad thoughts are[u] my wrong choices. [/u]So God can just as easily communicate to me through my imagination as any other method.
[/quote]


I know you believe in this coming of Jesus more or 2000 years ago as if you learned it from God. But, you do not get that ‘knowledge’ directly from God himself. You just believe it comes from God. Actually, you learned it from other people, and in turn they learned it too from other believer who were before them. This is what you call tradition.

This is the reason why I said ‘It is your early fathers who said it and not God.
’

Edited October 16, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1350341243' post='2493775']
Apostle Paul was born 5AD if I got my facts right. So he was no more a witness to Jesus than anyone. He believed and converted because he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to propagate the doctrine of Jesus. Because like many he could see that Jesus doctrine could have only come from God. No mere prophet could teach such profound wisdom in such a fallen evil and violent world. Apostle Paul spread the good news as he heard it from the witnesses of the historical Jesus. How can have so much faith in St. Paul and yet not see that???


Only God is good! Evil comes from satan. The people who say evil against the Church serve satan. Humans do not create good or evil they choose to follow one or the other.



Lets discuss this now because I'm sure my answer will come as a shock. [b]There is possibly some truth in what you say.[/b]
Okay,[u] my take! no qualification to write this. [/u]
The people of Muhammad were nomadic barbaric people who worshiped false gods, they were polytheists. Moh brought Islam to the one true God of Abraham and the Abrahamic teachings. This was good because it was a move in the right direction. Only God is good, therefore i believe there is every possibility that Moh was inspired by God and was a prophet! However Moh was just a man, unlike Jesus who was God incarnate (perfect man) Moh was fallen and because his peoples traditions believed in the subjugation of women and polygamy! And the violent oppression of any who opposed. Moh fell to the lies of satan and excised the doctrine of Jesus Christ from the faith simply because it did not suit what he desired. He may have very well have also fallen to sexual temptation, but then if there is truth in a doco. I recently watched both St Paul and St. Augustine struggled with their sexual desires and thoughts. Artists depicted the serpent as a woman being the greatest tempter to sin. The removal of Jesus from the faith brought it to the level of error of Judaism, but still with enough truth to survive. But like that stone that is thrown into the air and falls back, truth, what is written in the heart prevails. Many modern Muslims reject that subjugation of women (especially the liberated women) They also reject the violence and terror done by extremists. They find that as embarrassing and hurtful as we find hurtful the news of paedophilia and attempts to cover it. Unbeknown to them the have moved toward the doctrine of Jesus Christ. That is why the Catholic Church accepts them as our beloved brothers and sisters.




I don't need to hear you. I can receive real truth from truth through the tool that God himself made to teach. The Church and it's faithful followers, my friends at PM.


I do not not judge you Rey. If you were to die today I believe that there is every possibility that you will attain Paradise. I see sincerity and genuine honesty in you. I prefer to see that rather than any defect.




You're welcome! I hope this post is of some use to you and others.
[/quote]

Let us talk about this later. I promise we will discuss this later okay?

Edited October 16, 2012 by reyb