Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

[reyb]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1350178013' post='2493194']
And this is precisely what I am saying. The Spirit is not one of contradiction but of Unity. Hence those what are in The Holy Spirit are united in a common understanding and included in verse 16. 2 Corinthians 11 : " [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=3#x"][color=#0f72da][3][/color][/url] But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted, and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=4#x"][color=#ff0000][4][/color][/url][color=#ff0000] For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom [u][b][u]we[/u][/b][/u] have not preached;[/color] or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel which you have not received; you might well bear with him. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=5#x"][color=#0f72da][5][/color][/url] For I suppose that I have done nothing less than the [b]great apostle[u][u]s[/u][/u][/b]."

What Paul is saying that those seduced by the serpent probably would accept a person preaching a different Christ, thus a different spirit and a different Gospel, but Paul himself clings to the "great apostles" (those apostles chosen by Jesus in His Lifetime and those to whom The Catholic Church can trace back its ancestry).

But honestly, reyb, this is all just going round and round in circles, you interpreting one way and others interpreting another - and though lengthy, this thread is going nowhere whatsoever except round and round in circles. I am wondering if you adhere to the Morman beliefs - that Jesus visited North America in person or something along those lines? I answered your question re why Jesus had to die back further in this thread, I hope you will answer my question.

God bless us all.
[/quote]

I do understand you clearly. Will you allow me to explain my piece? Because it seems you are now not allowing me to speak.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350178851' post='2493196']
I do understand you clearly. Will you allow me to explain my piece? Because it seems you are now not allowing me to speak.
[/quote]

I have no powers over you posting or whether you do not. You are free to post or not as are all Phatmass members. I have in fact asked you a question, which means that I am looking forward to your post answering it. I dont have an answer in my mind, and am asking for your response please.
My assessments and comments are only mine - no authority whatsoever other than I hope that any comments related to religion are totally in line with what The Catholic Church teaches. If not, then I need to adjust my thinking, comments and concepts etc. because The Catholic Church is my sole guide to my thoughts on matters related to religion and spirituality - thus to the whole of my life and life in general.
I really must go. My computer is very slow and particularly on Phatmass for some reason and only Phatmass. The only thing really I have to work with positively is that I am a quite quick touch typist and tend to think as I type - although the latter may not be a plus at all!. It is 12.24pm here and I have not achieved much at all that I need to achieve. I might be able to return later today and I may not. If not, then not perhaps for a another day or so.

Reby, can I draw your attention to my question again, please - i.e. : " I am wondering if you adhere to the Morman beliefs - that Jesus visited North America in person or something along those lines? I answered your question re why Jesus had to die back further in this thread, I hope you will answer my question."



God bless.

Edited October 14, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Just before I go.

• [url="http://www.audioenglish.net/dictionary/collective.htm#adj"][b]COLLECTIVE[/b] (adjective)[/url]
The adjective [b]COLLECTIVE[/b] has 3 senses:
[b]1.[/b] done by or characteristic of individuals acting together
[b]2.[/b] forming a whole or aggregate

What I mean by "collective common understanding". Is a group of people (collective) with a common (same) understanding" and probably (since I do not know the post and actual statement to which you are referring, reyb) what I was referring to is The Catholic Church tracing its existence and beliefs to Jesus and His apostles - or the collective(which is its membership called into being over the ages, or the membership of The Catholic Church and united in it by The Holy Spirit through His Grace) and the common understanding is the fact that all faithful Catholics believe exactly the same things coming from Scripture and the times of Jesus and His apostles and in relation to Faith and Morals as taught by The Catholic Church and Her authority to do so.

Edited October 14, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1350152453' post='2493113']
You have stated that your religion is a combination of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. How do you resolve the contradictions between theses beliefs? As well as the false beliefs contained in Islam and modern Rabbinic Judaism?
[/quote]

Good question! Will be interested to read reyb's response.

[reyb]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1350176932' post='2493187']
[b]Members have posted previously why they believe Jesus had to die to save sinners.[/b]
It rather reminds me of when I was studying and the tutor would ask the same question continually until a student came up with the same answer that was always in the mind of the tutor. In other words, the tutor would accept nothing but his or her own opinion or answer to the question. And if no student came up with that opinion or answer, then it was deemed by the tutor that the class had failed to answer the question in the first place. Sometimes, what was in fact happening, was that the tutor refused to accept anything but his or her own opinion or answer and thus could not hear what his or her students were actually saying, nor wanted to do so.
[/quote]


First, our topic is not whether you believe Jesus had to die to save sinner or not. But, why it is necessary or why without his death no one will be saved. In the beginning of this thread, questions are made in this manner:

Why did Christ have to die? Couldn’t God have forgiven sins without this? And the answer provided by Catholics Scholars is practically ‘we do not know’ by saying ‘what can we say?’

I seized this opportunity in order to test yourselves by your own measurement because, it is impossible for anyone not to know it if he is truly a recipient of this gift. Meaning, not knowing its reason is the same as not having the Spirit of Christ. Thus, I posted 1 Cor 2:10-16 which states:’...The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God....’

But it seems Catholic position remains, ‘they have the Spirit of Christ but still, they do not know its reason. Thus, I continually asking about it because I want you to realize that something is not really right, and then I am hoping you will seek the real Christ.

Edited October 14, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

Then, it comes the second issue I know Catholics do not accept my statement, ‘when God reveal ‘Jesus is Christ’, He reveals everything about Him’.but Apostle Paul said the same thing. It is written in 1 Cor 2:1-5, He said,

[indent=1]When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power[/indent]

Take note what he said ‘.For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified’ While is other part of his letter you can see he knows 'even the deep things of God'. So, what is the difference between his testimony and my statement that ‘when God reveals that ‘Jesus is Christ’ He reveal everything about Him’?

Edited October 14, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1350176323' post='2493180']
Gnosticism?

2 Corinthians 11 : " [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=3#x"][3][/url] But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted, and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=4#x"][4][/url] For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom [u][b]we[/b][/u] have not preached; or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel which you have not received; you might well bear with him. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=5#x"][5][/url] For I suppose that I have done nothing less than the [b]great apostle[u]s[/u][/b]."

Again, the above denotes a common understanding, not an individual one and this common understading is one directly connected to the time of Jesus and His apostles.
[/quote]


I am not a Gnostic like Marcion. Now, if you will consider Apostle Paul a Gnostic then I am happy to be called as such.

Let us discuss 2 Cor 11:1-6. Are you saying this ‘great apostles’ is the apostles of Jesus like Peter, John...etc (the twelve disciple (except Judas of course) of Jesus in the synoptic gospel).?

Edited October 14, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1350178013' post='2493194']
But honestly, reyb, this is all just going round and round in circles, you interpreting one way and others interpreting another - and though lengthy, this thread is going nowhere whatsoever except round and round in circles. [b]I am wondering if you adhere to the Morman beliefs - that Jesus visited North America in person or something along those lines?[/b] I answered your question re why Jesus had to die back further in this thread, I hope you will answer my question.

God bless us all.
[/quote]
[size=4]T[/size]he Book of Mormons is just another Best Seller story like Augustine's City of Gods. Joseph Smith is not a true prophet of God. He is just a good story teller like the creator of Lord of the Rings. I hope there are Mormons here who are listening to us. You must be informed.

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1349523158' post='2490633']
Reby's Post on 4th October 2012 : [b]"But still, I can testify why he died and without his death no one will be saved."[/b]
I would be interested in reading your thoughts, reby. [/quote]
BarbaraTherese,
Are you referring to this (see above post). Okay I will prepare my answer.

Edited October 14, 2012 by reyb

[BarbTherese]

[quote] Reyb :
Let us discuss 2 Cor 11:1-6. Are you saying this ‘great apostles’ is the apostles of Jesus like Peter, John...etc (the twelve disciple (except Judas of course) of Jesus in the synoptic gospel).? [/quote]


OHhh nooo, pleaaase, not more questions, reyb!

Edited October 14, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[reyb]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1350198510' post='2493234']


OHhh nooo, pleaaase, not more questions, reyb!
[/quote]

Okay. I am sorry.

[BarbTherese]

No need to be sorry, reyb - I just had to burst out laughing at another question. But I do commend you for the simple sincerity of "Okay I am sorry" .

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350191490' post='2493231']
I am not a Gnostic like Marcion. Now, if you will consider Apostle Paul a Gnostic then I am happy to be called as such.

Let us discuss 2 Cor 11:1-6. Are you saying this ‘great apostles’ is the apostles of Jesus like Peter, John...etc (the twelve disciple (except Judas of course) of Jesus in the synoptic gospel).?
[/quote]

Ok, you are not gnostic with secret knowledge you say, neither was the Apostle Paul.

I quoted : " 2 Corinthians 11 : " [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=3#x"][color=#0f72da][3][/color][/url] But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted, and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=4#x"][color=#0f72da][4][/color][/url] For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom [u][b][u]we[/u][/b][/u] have not preached; or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel which you have not received; you might well bear with him. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=5#x"][color=#0f72da][5][/color][/url] For I suppose that I have done nothing less than the [b]great apostle[u][u]s[/u][/u][/b]."

Yes, I am saying that "great apostles" are the apostles of Jesus in His lifetime. 1 Corinthians Ch1 " [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=1&l=10#x"][10][/url] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment. .....................[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=1&l=30#x"][30][/url] But of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and justice, and sanctification, and redemption".

With respect, reyb, if you are going to mention this 'historical Jesus' of which you have spoken previously - and some other Jesus unknown to the Catholic Faith, please explain quite clearly how you define 'historical Jesus' and the Jesus known to you. This does sound awful like some sort of secret knowledge, although if you claim that you have none, then you do not. But to me at this point, it sounds like "secret knowledge" which gives "secret understandings" as I have no idea what you mean by either definition of these two "Jesus terms", since you haven't really given any..

Is it secret 'knowledge', or is it some sort of 'knowledge' shared with others?

I really dont know what you are on about since the Catholic Faith teaches that Jesus was crucified for us, for our sins. A few members have already given why they think it was necessary for Jesus to be crucified and to my mind all have something of value to say. However, we cannot know exactly what was in the mind of The Father beyond any sort of doubts, i.e. precise knowledge and understanding. If we do have such, again to my mind, it is a secret sort of knowledge and understanding. Unless it is some sort of trick question of yours - some sort of trickey type questions constructed deliberately as a sort of stumblilng block. However, a stumbling block it cannot be, only a trick question with the questioner already having the answer in mind and relentless unless 'the class' comes up with his answer and only his answer. It may well be the obvious that is just simply overlooked though embraced - but to the tutor it is incorrect understanding. A rigid and unbending outlook.

[b] [u]gnos·tic[/u][/b]
1. pertaining to knowledge.
2. [color=#333333]possessing[/color] knowledge, especially esoteric knowledge of [color=#333333]spiritual[/color] matters.
3. ( initial capital letter ) [color=#333333]pertaining[/color] to or characteristic of the [color=#333333]Gnostics.[/color]

[reyb]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1350202820' post='2493239']
Ok, you are not gnostic with secret knowledge you say, neither was the Apostle Paul.

I quoted : " 2 Corinthians 11 : " [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=3#x"][color=#0f72da][3][/color][/url] But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted, and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=4#x"][color=#0f72da][4][/color][/url] For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom [u][b][u]we[/u][/b][/u] have not preached; or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel which you have not received; you might well bear with him. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=5#x"][color=#0f72da][5][/color][/url] For I suppose that I have done nothing less than the [b]great apostle[u][u]s[/u][/u][/b]."

Yes, I am saying that "great apostles" are the apostles of Jesus in His lifetime. 1 Corinthians Ch1 " [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=1&l=10#x"][10][/url] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment. .....................[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=1&l=30#x"][30][/url] But of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and justice, and sanctification, and redemption".

With respect, reyb, if you are going to mention this 'historical Jesus' of which you have spoken previously - and some other Jesus unknown to the Catholic Faith, please explain quite clearly how you define 'historical Jesus' and the Jesus known to you. This does sound awful like some sort of secret knowledge, although if you claim that you have none, then you do not. But to me at this point, it sounds like "secret knowledge" which gives "secret understandings" as I have no idea what you mean by either definition of these two "Jesus terms", since you haven't really given any..

Is it secret 'knowledge', or is it some sort of 'knowledge' shared with others?

I really dont know what you are on about since the Catholic Faith teaches that Jesus was crucified for us, for our sins. A few members have already given why they think it was necessary for Jesus to be crucified and to my mind all have something of value to say. However, we cannot know exactly what was in the mind of The Father beyond any sort of doubts, i.e. precise knowledge and understanding. If we do have such, again to my mind, it is a secret sort of knowledge and understanding. Unless it is some sort of trick question of yours - some sort of trickey type questions constructed deliberately as a sort of stumblilng block. However, a stumbling block it cannot be, only a trick question with the questioner already having the answer in mind and relentless unless 'the class' comes up with his answer and only his answer. It may well be the obvious that is just simply overlooked though embraced - but to the tutor it is incorrect understanding. A rigid and unbending outlook.

[b] [u]gnos·tic[/u][/b]
1. pertaining to knowledge.
2. [color=#333333]possessing[/color] knowledge, especially esoteric knowledge of [color=#333333]spiritual[/color] matters.
3. ( initial capital letter ) [color=#333333]pertaining[/color] to or characteristic of the [color=#333333]Gnostics.[/color]
[/quote]


I said I am not Gnostic like Marcion because I do not know Marcion or I never read any of his letters. I am not aware too if Gnostics are intentionally hiding any particular knowledge or not though it can be shared thus, I do not belong to them since I am not hiding anything from you.

But let me clarify things because it seems you are telling us that the ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 2:6-7 is not hidden to Catholics. Actually, if it is true then you cannot see me writing like this since we have nothing to talk about. I know you believed in your traditions that Apostle Paul belongs to your group and worshipping God thru that same Jesus Christ which now I called ‘historical Jesus Christ’. But I want to tell you why I do not agree.

The one I called ‘historical Jesus Christ’ is your Jesus in Catholics’ salvation history. I hope it is very clear now. You can see how easy to share your Jesus from one man to another. Just two of you come together, one is sharing the other is listening and at once, if both is willing it can be shared easily. You see how easily we can understand each other regarding this Jesus we are now talking about.

But I am telling in this forum many times that there is another Jesus which is still hidden from you and that is the Jesus Apostle Paul is truly saying and not your historical Jesus. You said I need to tell you who is that ‘other Jesus’ and just like I said before. Your request is not possible because only God can reveal him. I am not lying to you. It cannot be shared by anyone even if a true witness is willing. Thus, this whole ‘sharing thing’ is termed by Apostle Paul, ‘foolishness of God’ in 1 Cor 1:25. A willing witness who cannot share what he saw and a willing listener who cannot understand what he is sharing and a God who says proclaim it because I want all of you to be saved. To make it clearer to you, even all of us come together – all of us in heaven and on earth come together as one in sharing and listening to each other. We cannot reveal Him because only God can do it. That is how, ‘How foolish it is’. Thus Apostle Paul said (1 Cor 1:25) ‘For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom,

But I see a way how can I come into your heart. I will share my love to you by showing you your fault. I know you will get mad at me. But still, I will share my Lord to you.

Edited October 14, 2012 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1350176932' post='2493187']
Members have posted previously why they believe Jesus had to die to save sinners.
It rather reminds me of when I was studying and the tutor would ask the same question continually until a student came up with the same answer that was always in the mind of the tutor. In other words, the tutor would accept nothing but his or her own opinion or answer to the question. And if no student came up with that opinion or answer, then it was deemed by the tutor that the class had failed to answer the question in the first place. Sometimes, what was in fact happening, was that the tutor refused to accept anything but his or her own opinion or answer and thus could not hear what his or her students were actually saying, nor wanted to do so.
[/quote]
awsome!

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350142739' post='2493065']
When God reveal to me his Christ, he exposed that this historical Jesus is a lie.
[/quote]
Can you explain why God would teach and propagate the story of Jesus and his love for us for 2k years and then ask you, who no one will believe, to tell the world that it is all a lie? Why you? why not someone who will be of influence to the world. After 600 years The Muslims tried to denounce Jesus doctrine because it did not suit their ethnic traditions. We don't listen to the Muslims, why should we listen to you?
For 2000 years God has been telling people that the gospel of Jesus is a lie and to not listen and the the Catholic Church is evil. Except that it is not God it is the liar and deceiver which is satan. You're being fooled Rey! Hopefully one day you will come to listen to these patient and spiritual people who only wish to help you.

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350187982' post='2493222']
Why did Christ have to die? Couldn’t God have forgiven sins without this?
[/quote]
[i]No greater love has a man than to lay down his life for his friends[/i]. People suffering intensely and dying and watching their loved ones suffer and die would lose faith if it wasn't that Jesus accepted a suffering agonizing death to show us that death is the only way to his kingdom not of this world. Often that means we must suffer. He doesn't tell us why it has to be that way. We accept what he tells us with faith because of this demonstration of love for us.

[i]I must accept whatever sickness, torment or agony is yet to come. To every cross I touch my lips that lets me be with you a co-redeemer of humanity.[/i]

Edited October 14, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1350252461' post='2493387']
awsome!


[b]Can you explain why God would teach and propagate the story of Jesus and his love for us for 2k years and then ask you, who no one will believe, to tell the world that it is all a lie? [/b]Why you? why not someone who will be of influence to the world. After 600 years The Muslims tried to denounce Jesus doctrine because it did not suit their ethnic traditions. We don't listen to the Muslims, why should we listen to you?
For 2000 years God has been telling people that the gospel of Jesus is a lie and to not listen and the the Catholic Church is evil. Except that it is not God it is the liar and deceiver which is satan. You're being fooled Rey! Hopefully one day you will come to listen to these patient and spiritual people who only wish to help you.


[i]No greater love has a man than to lay down his life for his friends[/i]. People suffering intensely and dying and watching their loved ones suffer and die would lose faith if it wasn't that Jesus accepted a suffering agonizing death to show us that death is the only way to his kingdom not of this world. Often that means we must suffer. He doesn't tell us why it has to be that way. We accept what he tells us with faith because of this demonstration of love for us.

[i]I must accept whatever sickness, torment or agony is yet to come. To every cross I touch my lips that lets me be with you a co-redeemer of humanity.[/i]
[/quote]


This is the problem for many Catholics. You are not reading the scripture carefully and scrutinize you belief based on truth and reality. You do not learn how to judge yourself properly and treat other people like yourself. All of us are just ‘believers’. Do not treat others as Satan just because they are against your group. Otherwise, you are Satan too in their eyes since you do not belong to their group.

In your post, it is not God who teach you and propagate the story of Jesus. I will say it again because I want you to understand me better. It is not God himself who tells you that ‘the historical realization of the coming of Christ more or less 2000 years ago is authentic and true’. It is your early fathers who said it and not God. It is not even Apostle Paul who tells them about this coming of historical Jesus otherwise he will never mention another Jesus in his letter. It is not even synoptic Gospel writer like Luke who tell them about historical Jesus since he already said in the beginning of his letter that it is just a 'narration' or a 'story' to ponder and not a 'historical event' which you will just accept to be true without seeing its trace in physical realities.

Again, it is not Satan who tells you that the Roman Catholic Church is evil. They are people who are against your Church.

Your group really misunderstood Prophet Muhammad (By the way, I will tell you in advance although I am not yet ready to discuss things about the Holy Qu’ran, that Prophet Muhammad is a true prophet of God. He is a Christian too like Apostle Paul). Let us discuss it later.

Now why me?


It is written, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy , and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Therefore, only God can answer your question because everything and every reason I will make will just become lips service since He alone has the reason in choosing among us.

Maybe I acted in ignorance in trying to reach the unreachable wisdom of God. Maybe, I give my best in trying to understand their testimony although I cannot make it. Maybe, I put myself in other’s self as if I am not myself in dealing with me. Maybe, I learn to judge myself with all honesty. Maybe, I tried my best to be good although I am not good. Maybe, I angered him when I said ‘it is better for you to take me now since I cannot know you’. Maybe, I am poor and feeling useless. Maybe, because I am not a priest. Maybe, I am lonely and full of problems although my problem is me. Maybe, I am asking everything although I should not ask anything. Maybe, when I say ‘Father, forgive me because I am not your son’. Maybe, I am crying but I should be happy. All reasons I can think are all maybe’s because He alone can answer your question.

Now, I know how you can you see Him. Just follow the instructions of our dear Apostle Paul and He will come because the two men dressed in white said

[indent=1]"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.[/indent]

This is just a story but this coming means for all eternity. He comes just once but seen by many at different times and in different generations of humanity and those who saw him first will see him last.

Now, if you do not believe me. What can I do?
Anyway, Mark thank you for your previous post.

Edited October 15, 2012 by reyb