Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

[Groo the Wanderer]

Reyb - i luv ya but there is so much poo in what you just posted, i dunno even where to start. its no wonder you cannot understand what anyone is saying. we have been talking about two completely different things. you have created a false christ for yourself, hence you reject the real Christ, your mis-named 'historical Jesus.'


this is mind-boggling. now i know what Sts. Augustine and Ambrose musta felt when facing the Arians, Manachees and Plotinists...

Edited October 13, 2012 by Groo the Wanderer

[reyb]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1350143269' post='2493073']
Reyb - i luv ya but there is so much poo in what you just posted, i dunno even where to start. its no wonder you cannot understand what anyone is saying. we have been talking about two completely different things. you have created a false christ for yourself, hence you reject the real Christ, your mis-named 'historical Jesus.'


this is mind-boggling. now i know what Sts. Augustine and Ambrose musta felt when facing the Arians, Manachees and Plotinists...
[/quote]


I do understand you belief because I was once a Catholic. But you will never know my Lord unless you see Him yourself. This is the reason why every witness is saying 'seek him' rather than 'accept what I believe'.

Okay. I will discuss your early fathers religious belief.

Edited October 13, 2012 by reyb

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1350143269' post='2493073']
Reyb - i luv ya but there is so much poo in what you just posted, i dunno even where to start. its no wonder you cannot understand what anyone is saying. we have been talking about two completely different things. you have created a false christ for yourself, hence you reject the real Christ, your mis-named 'historical Jesus.'


this is mind-boggling. now i know what Sts. Augustine and Ambrose musta felt when facing the Arians, Manachees and Plotinists...
[/quote]
Who was the one that punched a heretic in the face during a council...? I always forget who it was. St. Nicholas and Arius, right?

[Groo the Wanderer]

Yep.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350145170' post='2493082']



I do understand you belief because I was once a Catholic. But you will never know my Lord unless you see Him yourself. This is the reason why every witness is saying 'seek him' rather than 'accept what I believe'.

Okay. I will discuss your early fathers religious belief.
[/quote]

You have stated that your religion is a combination of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. How do you resolve the contradictions between theses beliefs? As well as the false beliefs contained in Islam and modern Rabbinic Judaism?

[KnightofChrist]

Also it will be a couple of days before I see and/or respond to your response. I am very busy with two full time jobs.

Edited October 13, 2012 by KnightofChrist

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1350152453' post='2493113']
You have stated that your religion is a combination of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. How do you resolve the contradictions between theses beliefs? As well as the false beliefs contained in Islam and modern Rabbinic Judaism?
[/quote]
I think he means he loves his neighbour! If he argues with us I doubt he will accept what they say both their Truths and errors!

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350145170' post='2493082']
I do understand you belief because I was once a Catholic. But you will never know my Lord unless you see Him yourself. This is the reason why every witness is saying 'seek him' rather than 'accept what I believe'.

Okay. I will discuss your early fathers religious belief.
[/quote]
You're a lone sheep Rey! While it is possible for the lone sheep to find the kingdom of heaven, there is grave danger of falling prey to the wolf through misinterpretation of doctrine.

[i][url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=9&l=35#x"][35][/url] And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son; hear him. [[url="http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=9&l=35#x"]Luke 9:35[/url]] [[url="http://drbo.org/x/d?b=lvb&bk=49&ch=9&l=35#x"]Latin[/url]] [/i]The best way to hear him is to listen to those who devote their lives to studying and understanding what he said.

[reyb]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1350088182' post='2492923']
Romans 11 :

" O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! How[u][b] incomprehensible [/b][/u]are his judgments, and how [u][b]unsearchable[/b][/u] his ways! [url="http://bible.cc/romans/11-34.htm"][b]34[/b][/url] [u][b]For who hath known the mind of the Lord[/b][/u]? Or who hath been his counsellor? [url="http://bible.cc/romans/11-35.htm"][b]35[/b][/url] Or who hath first given to him, and recompense shall be made him? [url="http://bible.cc/romans/11-36.htm"][b]36[/b][/url] For of him, and by him, and in him, are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen. "

If I assume a literal understanding of the above (as reby seems to do with Scripture passages) and then interpret the following literally also ""No eye has seen, nor ear has heard, no mind has conceived, what God has prepared for those who love Him. But God has revealed it to us by His Spirit" . The two passages seem to be contradictory. The Holy Spirit who is Truth cannot contradict Himself, so that if there is contradiction then The Spirit is not present. Both points of view may be a little bit right and a little bit wrong, but The Spirit is not present until full unity is achieved. And The Spirit, in His Fullness, is a spirit of Truth and of Love. Not of accusation and personal attack for the sake of being attacking and hurtful to the other. "Truth without Love can only every be at most, a half truth".

Scripture appears to contradict itself adopting the manner of understanding of reby, and contradiction is to make a liar of The Holy Spirit. Scripture does not contradict itself, nor is The Holy Spirit a liar. Notice that St Paul states "WE have the mind of Christ" (another translation is "But God has revealed it to [u][b]US[/b][/u] by His Spirit", not "I have the mind of Christ" or "God has revealed it to me by His Spirit". This denotes a collective common understanding, not an individual one. We do know from Acts that Peter and Paul did have a point of disagreement and that this disagreement was resolved. From the very beginning The Church has strived to be unified and this continues today. In the early years of Christianity, for example, all sorts of things were being taught based on Scriptural understandings, so that meetings were called by The Church to settle these points of disunity and they were settled. Now a collective understanding can mean that all are deceived; however, Jesus has said "The Gates of Hell shall not prevail" and since the time of Christ to today, only The Catholic Church can trace our line right back to Jesus. If the Gates of Hell prevail, then there will be total and absolute disunity and discord reigning over all.

The Gates of Hell are Satan and Satan is discord and disunity, the lack of love and truth. Certainly the Gates of Hell at times and including in our day have waged a war on The Catholic Church - battles won and battles lost, betrayal even within and Jesus was betrayed by one of His own. Jesus has assured us that He will win the war and the Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ on earth and our unity is in The Spirit, in love and in truth - despite all attacks.

Unity is very close to The Heart of Jesus for the Heart of Jesus is The Spirit. The prayer of Jesus at his final meal with His apostles before His death "That they may be One, Father, as We are One."
[/quote]


There is no ‘collective common understanding’ as you suggest in that passage of the scripture and thus, you can see its problem since they still need to ‘strived to be unified’ although they claim having the Holy Spirit.

Let me tell you how I read it. He said in 1 Cor 2:13-3:1

[indent=1]13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:[/indent]

[indent=1]16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord[/indent]
[indent=1]that he may instruct him?"[/indent]

[indent=1]But we have the mind of Christ.[/indent]

Now in that word ‘we’ (in verse 16) it does not necessary mean the reader (or you) are already included. It is in conditional state whether it is confirming or defending the Gospel from you. If you do not have the Spirit he mentioned in verse 13 then, you are man ‘without the Spirit’ in verse 14. But if you have that same Spirit in verse 13 then, you are included in that word ‘we’.

So, there is no ‘collective common understanding’ as you say in that verse. There is only one ‘Spirit of Christ ‘ in all of these people thus they can say among themselves the word ‘But we have the mind of Chris'.

By the way, where did you get that idea you just mentioned?

Edited October 14, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

Thus, I previously said ....

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1349712153' post='2491204']
If they really have this Spirit they must have known it. . (Why Did Jesus have to die in order to save sinners).
[/quote]

[BarbTherese]

[quote]Up to now, you still do not undestand me why I call your Jesus, ‘the historical Jesus’. I call him that way in order to differentiate your Jesus to another Jesus who is still hidden from you. And since you believe in historical realization of the coming of Christ named Jesus which was fulfilled more or less 2000 years ago hence I called your Jesus, ‘The historical Jesus Christ’. There is another Jesus different from you historical Jesus. They are not one and the same Jesus which was proudly taught by your priests and preachers (Please see 2 Cor 11:3-4).

I am not saying there are two Jesuses who are both true. There is one and only one Christ of God. One is real the other is a counterfeit - a lie and a non-existing Christ. In your eyes, you see only one Jesus Christ and that is, the historical Jesus thus; you can say that other Jesus (who is my Jesus) is the non-existing Jesus. On the other hand, I can see them both. [b]When God [u]reveal to me[/u] his Christ, he exposed that this historical Jesus is a lie[/b]. Now, I know there is no historical Jesus at all and he is existing only in the mind of a believer but never in truth and reality.[/quote]

Gnosticism?

2 Corinthians 11 : " [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=3#x"][3][/url] But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted, and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=4#x"][4][/url] For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom [u][b]we[/b][/u] have not preached; or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel which you have not received; you might well bear with him. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=5#x"][5][/url] For I suppose that I have done nothing less than the [b]great apostle[u]s[/u][/b]."

Again, the above denotes a common understanding, not an individual one and this common understading is one directly connected to the time of Jesus and His apostles.

Reyb, I am sure you really believe what you are saying is right, just as we do. I do not doubt, nor call into question your sincerity in any way, thus not your personal integrity. However, you seem to have some sort of 'secret knowledge' and this is your reference point, we have an entirely difference reference point and a common one, a common understanding from the time of Jesus - and related set of beliefs called The Catholic Faith, The Catholic Church. Without stating more on the latter further in any way, this in fact means that we can never agree and a case of 'apples and oranges' because our points of reference are not only entirely different, but are opposed. Any person can say anything at all that they like and claim 'secret knowledge' hidden from those with whom they are conversing. This knowledge, being secret and quite personal and hidden, is thus not a point that probably can be debated since the only person that can refer to that 'secret knowledge' is the person to whom that 'secret knowledge' has access. Because this 'knowledge' is quite personal and 'secret' it does, in fact, mean that that very 'secret knowledge' is quite open, and rightly so, to be termed nonsense, simply becuase it is absolutely 'secret knowledge' and quite personal and hidden from all others. All that could be debated is whether in fact this person has any 'secret knowledge' and to have such in relation to what has been revealed is quite contrary to Catholic Teaching and is in fact termed as "heretical" and possibly a type of gnosticism. Probably few and far between if any are those that would adhere to some completely 'secret knowledge' by some other person. In other words, I have no idea whatsoever where you are coming from since your 'knowledge' is personal and secret and some new sort of revelation from God and this latter is heretical to our Faith, although I think I can sight your goal and that is to bring The Catholic Church into question somehow - and failed and failing in this objective.
You can logically state as often as you wish that what we believe is nonsense in your opinion based on some 'secret knowledge', and we have the very same logical right to state the same about your statements coming from hidden from us 'secret knowledge' and which are quite contrary to our own beliefs and cherished ones of long historical standing to boot that calls any new revelations from God as heretical when it contradicts what has been Revealed by Him. Nothing logically is achieved, there is no active search for truth, since we both claim truth and truth cannot contradict itself. We can only contradict and contradict and 'shout' it at each other, nothing achieved.

It may well be that you have not read the Rules or guidelines. You can find them here [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/81147-phorum-guidelines/"]http://www.phatmass....rum-guidelines/[/url] In my time on Catholic Discussion site, I have been PM'd by a moderator more than once pointing out that I was transgressing the Rules or guidelines of a forum. What had happened is that I had completely forgotten about them in quite active threadds,

Edited October 14, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350174639' post='2493176']

By the way, where did you get that idea you just mentioned?
[/quote]

Apologies, what idea are you speaking about?

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350176201' post='2493179']
Thus, I previously said ....

If they really have this Spirit they must have known it. . (Why Did Jesus have to die in order to save sinners).



[/quote]

Members have posted previously why they believe Jesus had to die to save sinners.
It rather reminds me of when I was studying and the tutor would ask the same question continually until a student came up with the same answer that was always in the mind of the tutor. In other words, the tutor would accept nothing but his or her own opinion or answer to the question. And if no student came up with that opinion or answer, then it was deemed by the tutor that the class had failed to answer the question in the first place. Sometimes, what was in fact happening, was that the tutor refused to accept anything but his or her own opinion or answer and thus could not hear what his or her students were actually saying, nor wanted to do so.

Edited October 14, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[reyb]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1350176617' post='2493183']
Apologies, what idea are you speaking about?
[/quote]

About the 'collective common understanding' in that verse. Common understanding yes but not 'collective common understanding'.

Edited October 14, 2012 by reyb

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350174639' post='2493176']
There is no ‘collective common understanding’ as you suggest in that passage of the scripture and thus, you can see its problem since they still need to ‘strived to be unified’ although they claim having the Holy Spirit.

Let me tell you how I read it. He said in 1 Cor 2:13-3:1



[indent=1]13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:[/indent]

[indent=1]16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord[/indent]
[indent=1]that he may instruct him?"[/indent]

[indent=1]But we have the mind of Christ.[/indent]

Now in that word ‘we’ (in verse 16) it does not necessary mean the reader (or you) are already included. It is in conditional state whether it is confirming or defending the Gospel from you. If you do not have the Spirit he mentioned in verse 13 then, you are man ‘without the Spirit’ in verse 14. But if you have that same Spirit in verse 13 then, you are included in that word ‘we’.

So, there is no ‘collective common understanding’ as you say in that verse. There is only one ‘Spirit of Christ ‘ in all of these people thus they can say among themselves the word ‘But we have the mind of Chris'.

By the way, where did you get that idea you just mentioned?
[/quote]

And this is precisely what I am saying. The Spirit is not one of contradiction but of Unity. Hence those what are in The Holy Spirit are united in a common understanding and included in verse 16. 2 Corinthians 11 : " [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=3#x"][color=#0f72da][3][/color][/url] But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted, and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=4#x"][color=#ff0000][4][/color][/url][color=#ff0000] For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom [u][b][u]we[/u][/b][/u] have not preached;[/color] or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel which you have not received; you might well bear with him. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=5#x"][color=#0f72da][5][/color][/url] For I suppose that I have done nothing less than the [b]great apostle[u][u]s[/u][/u][/b]."

What Paul is saying that those seduced by the serpent probably would accept a person preaching a different Christ, thus a different spirit and a different Gospel, but Paul himself clings to the "great apostles" (those apostles chosen by Jesus in His Lifetime and those to whom The Catholic Church can trace back its ancestry).

But honestly, reyb, this is all just going round and round in circles, you interpreting one way and others interpreting another - and though lengthy, this thread is going nowhere whatsoever except round and round in circles. I am wondering if you adhere to the Morman beliefs - that Jesus visited North America in person or something along those lines? I answered your question re why Jesus had to die back further in this thread, I hope you will answer my question.

God bless us all.

Edited October 14, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350177704' post='2493192']
About the 'collective common understanding' in that verse. Common understanding yes but not 'collective common understanding'.
[/quote]

Apologies once again - and I am not trying to be difficult. It would be very helpful if you would quote the post to which you refer and highlight the referred to actual statement. My concepts and ideas about religion are always informed, I always hope, by The Catholic Church and Her Teachings. And if not, then I need to correct my concepts and ideas.