Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

[reyb]

To all of you especially to Groo,

All of us know that Jesus died for us in obedience to the will of God and I do not think you are that too naive to miss it. Again, Jesus died for us in obedience to the will of God and he did not choose to die in a way you (Groo ) are trying to say- to make fun using me through this discussion. If you do not really know that ‘Jesus gave his life in obedience to the will of God’ then I will admit I am wrong and stupid in posting unnecessary remarks.

So please I beg you not to make any insults deliberately done using useless pretension of ignorance just to have fun on your part. Any insults or whatever sarcastic comments done with all honesty is all acceptable to me because we are all taught to forgive one another as God forgive us but, a kind of insult which is done with dishonesty is truly unbearable to me.

Even Apostle said the same thing in 2 Cor 11:18-21

[indent=2]Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face. To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that![/indent]

There is always hope for honest people and for them my prayers goes. Thus, you can see me in this forum because this is how I pray for all of you. (including Groo of course).

Edited October 8, 2012 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

Patience is a virtue! Seldom found in humans and never in a Llama.

[reyb]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1349506352' post='2490611']
This was the Reading at Evening Prayer I tonight - it made me think of this thread:

Romans 11
"How great are God's riches! How deep are His Wisdom and Knowledge. Who can explain His Decisions - Who can understand His Ways? As the Scriputre says: Who knows the Mind of God?"

Daily in our own days, terrible things are happening to the good and the innocent at the hands of apparently evil people. The evil seem to prosper, while the good seem to have misery. It is a mystery, the why of it all. Jesus was one of these good and innocent who suffered at the hands of apparently evil people in His Life. The exact reason as to be precise knowledge, we cannot know and the above Reading underscores this. Sometimes not knowing can be ignorance. At other times, it can be humility in the Face of God and His Wisdom and Decisions and Jesus accepted His Father's Wisdom and Decisions wholeheartedly as He sweated drops of blood in terrible fear of what was to come "........if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me - but not My Will but Thine be done"
Jesus is aware of His coming crucifixion and sufferings and does not ask "Why?" and for obvious reasons (His Father knows in His Infinite Wisdom what is best) and knowing this, Jesus asks "if it be possible let this cup pass from Me" ........or, as it were, "if there is another way, I would rather avoid what is to come". He is asking a question of His Father's Infinite Wisdom, with absolute resignation to that Wisdom, whatever it may be.

The Catholic Catechism does give us an understanding of the why of it all as the theology of the Permissive Will of God. I think I have already quoted the relevant paragraphs in the CCC
[/quote]


But you just missed the other part of what Apostle Paul is saying. He said in 1 Cor 2:10 ‘but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit’.

He even further said in 1 Cor 2:10-16

[indent=1]'The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:[/indent]

[indent=1]16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord[/indent]
[indent=1]that he may instruct him?"[/indent]

[indent=1]But we have the mind of Christ .'[/indent]

Meaning, if they really have this Spirit they must have known it. . (Why Did Jesus have to die in order to save sinners).

Edited October 8, 2012 by reyb

[Groo the Wanderer]

Reyb, in all charity, one does not exclude the other. What BT posted was just fine, as well as numerous other posts by the pham. You seem stuck on the idea that our faith is either/or. Either this scripture fits it or that one does. In reality, ours is a faith of both/and. ALL of scripture points to the Truth - there are no contradictions. If we seem to think we have found one, it is merely that we do not really understand what we are reading. That applies to you, me, BT, and everyone else.

You make the assertion that "[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]Meaning, if they really have this Spirit they must have known it." I assert this is false. We can comprehend some of God, but we cannot fully comprehend God. That is the definition of incomprehensible (see CCC 42). We all have the gift of the Spirit due to our baptism.(CCC 1213 & 1226). Does that mean we can fully comprehend God? Of course not, since even a baby receives the Holy Spirit, and we can both agree they hardly comprehend God, much less how to tie their shoes as an infant. :-) So it is plain to see that even as the Apostles and disciples (and us!) have received the Holy Spirit, it most certainly does not mean they have gained gnostic knowledge and understanding of God and His plan.[/color][/font]

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]Why did Christ have to die in order to save sinners? My answer is that He did not have to. He could have simply wiped out sin and our ability to do so. POOF. Instead He chose to show His immense love for us by voluntarily doing so, and in the process show us how we are expected to love one another. BTW - voluntarily laying down your life is not suicide, so please do not try that argument either. History is full of saints who have given up their lives for others...St. Maximillian Kolbe just to name one. His sacrifice was not suicide by any stretch of the imagination. Neither was Christ's.[/color][/font]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Now is my answer complete and comprehensive? Of course not. It is valid, as are the other answers that have been given you by the pham earlier. Tis the beauty of our faith..both/and again. All of us have expressed our part of the Truth. They do not contradict nor exclude the others. They complement and build upon one another. Is all Truth revealed in our collective answers? No again, because we cannot know all of Truth as Truth is God and He is again, incomprehensible. Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened. I would recommend that if our answers are not enough individually, you seek to comprehend them as incomplete parts of a whole. You may just find the missing piece you are looking for.[/font][/color]

Edited October 8, 2012 by Groo the Wanderer

[reyb]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1349729926' post='2491357']
Reyb, in all charity, one does not exclude the other. What BT posted was just fine, as well as numerous other posts by the pham. You seem stuck on the idea that our faith is either/or. Either this scripture fits it or that one does. In reality, ours is a faith of both/and. ALL of scripture points to the Truth - there are no contradictions. If we seem to think we have found one, it is merely that we do not really understand what we are reading. That applies to you, me, BT, and everyone else.

You make the assertion that "[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]Meaning, if they really have this Spirit they must have known it." I assert this is false. We can comprehend some of God, but we cannot fully comprehend God. That is the definition of incomprehensible (see CCC 42). We all have the gift of the Spirit due to our baptism.(CCC 1213 & 1226). Does that mean we can fully comprehend God? Of course not, since even a baby receives the Holy Spirit, and we can both agree they hardly comprehend God, much less how to tie their shoes as an infant. :-) So it is plain to see that even as the Apostles and disciples (and us!) have received the Holy Spirit, it most certainly does not mean they have gained gnostic knowledge and understanding of God and His plan.[/color][/font]

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]Why did Christ have to die in order to save sinners? My answer is that He did not have to. He could have simply wiped out sin and our ability to do so. POOF. Instead He chose to show His immense love for us by voluntarily doing so, and in the process show us how we are expected to love one another. BTW - voluntarily laying down your life is not suicide, so please do not try that argument either. History is full of saints who have given up their lives for others...St. Maximillian Kolbe just to name one. His sacrifice was not suicide by any stretch of the imagination. Neither was Christ's.[/color][/font]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Now is my answer complete and comprehensive? Of course not. It is valid, as are the other answers that have been given you by the pham earlier. Tis the beauty of our faith..both/and again. All of us have expressed our part of the Truth. They do not contradict nor exclude the others. They complement and build upon one another. Is all Truth revealed in our collective answers? No again, because we cannot know all of Truth as Truth is God and He is again, incomprehensible. Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened. I would recommend that if our answers are not enough individually, you seek to comprehend them as incomplete parts of a whole. You may just find the missing piece you are looking for.[/font][/color]
[/quote]

Okay. Thank you for your info.

Edited October 9, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1349729926' post='2491357']
...........
You make the assertion that "[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]Meaning, if they really have this Spirit they must have known it." I assert this is false. We can comprehend some of God, but we cannot fully comprehend God. [b]That is the definition of incomprehensible (see CCC 42). We all have the gift of the Spirit due to our baptism.(CCC 1213 & 1226)[/b]. Does that mean we can fully comprehend God? Of course not, since even a baby receives the Holy Spirit, and we can both agree they hardly comprehend God, much less how to tie their shoes as an infant. :-) So it is plain to see that even as the Apostles and disciples (and us!) have received the Holy Spirit, it most certainly does not mean they have gained gnostic knowledge and understanding of God and His plan.[/color][/font]
,....
[/quote]
[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1349762311' post='2491571']
Okay. Thank you for your info.
[/quote]

Again ty for the info (see bold letters).

Edited October 11, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1349729926' post='2491357']
........[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [b] So it is plain to see that even as the Apostles and disciples (and us!) have received the Holy Spirit, it most certainly does not mean they have gained gnostic knowledge and understanding of God and His plan.[/b][/font][/color]
[/quote]


Let us go back to our discussion because you said ‘ So it is plain to see that even as the Apostles and disciples (and us!) have received the Holy Spirit, it most certainly does not mean they have gained gnostic knowledge and understanding of God and His plan.’

I do not agree with your observation - maybe many things are still hidden from you but it does not mean it is still hidden to true disciples - because Apostle Paul said 1 Cor 2:7-16

[indent=1]7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:[/indent]

[indent=1]"No eye has seen,[/indent]
[indent=1]no ear has heard,[/indent]
[indent=1]no mind has conceived[/indent]
[indent=1]what God has prepared for those who love him"—[/indent]

[indent=1]10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.[/indent]

[indent=1]The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God . 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:[/indent]

[indent=1]16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord[/indent]
[indent=1]that he may instruct him?"[/indent]

[indent=1]But we have the mind of Christ.[/indent]
[indent=1]------------------------------[/indent]

This (please see above verse) is the reason why I said 'if they really have this Spirit they must have known it." Again, what I am saying is very simple to understand. If you really have the blessing of the Holy Spirit you must have known it because 'God has revealed it to us by his Spirit .....even the deep things of God.'

I hope you see it Groo.

Edited October 11, 2012 by reyb

[Groo the Wanderer]

you make a lot of assumptions and many are quite wrong. you are twisting St. Paul's words very dangerously. St. Paul clearly did NOT say we have had ALL knowledge of God revealed to us. You added the ALL.

I remind you of the words of St. Peter: "So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." (2 Pet 3:15-16)

Beware Retb, you are indeed twisting the words of St. Paul to your own destruction. Please reconsider.

[reyb]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1349976036' post='2492339']
you make a lot of assumptions and many are quite wrong. you are twisting St. Paul's words very dangerously. St. Paul clearly did NOT say we have had ALL knowledge of God revealed to us. You added the ALL.

I remind you of the words of St. Peter: "So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." (2 Pet 3:15-16)

Beware Retb, you are indeed twisting the words of St. Paul to your own destruction. Please reconsider.
[/quote]

Please read again our previous discussion (in the other topic) very carefully.

I said ‘For me, when God reveals that 'Jesus is Christ'. He already reveals everything about Him’. Now if your ‘All knowledge’ means ‘everything about Christ’ then you are correct in reading my previous post which is obviously you did not agree with me.

Thank you for reminding me of that verse although I am aware of that verse too. Now, I am calling your attention too not to distort Apostle Paul' words because you said ' [b].So it is plain to see that even as the Apostles and disciples (and us!) have received the Holy Spirit, it most certainly does not mean they have gained gnostic knowledge and understanding of God and His plan.'[/b]

While Apostle Paul said,

[indent=1][b]'"No eye has seen,[/b][/indent]
[indent=1][b]no ear has heard,[/b][/indent]
[indent=1][b]no mind has conceived[/b][/indent]
[indent=1][b]what God has prepared for those who love him"—[/b][/indent]

[indent=1]10 [b]but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.[/b][/indent]
-------------------------

Apostle Paul is obviously saying 'God's plan was revealed to anyone who has the Spirit of God' while you are saying 'they (including Apostle Paul) have no understanding of God's plan.

Can you please explain your comment further because you are practically making him a liar. Are you saying these verses are not true?

Edited October 11, 2012 by reyb

[Groo the Wanderer]

You know I am not. When you say "[color=#282828][font='Open Sans', sans-serif]‘For me, when God reveals that 'Jesus is Christ'. He already reveals everything about Him’." then you are speaking falsely. YOU do not get to decide what or if God reveals anything or everything to you. Again, you make false presumptions where you lack the authority to do so.[/font][/color]

[font="Open Sans, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]It seems to me the crux of the whole debate between you and Christianity is that you seize for yourself the authority to interpret scripture, put God into a box, and define what He has revealed and to whom. You even take it upon yourself to redefine Christ with this 'historical Jesus' nonsense. As Christians, we are much more humble. I pray the scales will fall from your eyes and they may be opened.[/color][/font]

[BarbTherese]

Romans 11 :

" O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! How[u][b] incomprehensible [/b][/u]are his judgments, and how [u][b]unsearchable[/b][/u] his ways! [url="http://bible.cc/romans/11-34.htm"][b]34[/b][/url] [u][b]For who hath known the mind of the Lord[/b][/u]? Or who hath been his counsellor? [url="http://bible.cc/romans/11-35.htm"][b]35[/b][/url] Or who hath first given to him, and recompense shall be made him? [url="http://bible.cc/romans/11-36.htm"][b]36[/b][/url] For of him, and by him, and in him, are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen. "

If I assume a literal understanding of the above (as reby seems to do with Scripture passages) and then interpret the following literally also ""No eye has seen, nor ear has heard, no mind has conceived, what God has prepared for those who love Him. But God has revealed it to us by His Spirit" . The two passages seem to be contradictory. The Holy Spirit who is Truth cannot contradict Himself, so that if there is contradiction then The Spirit is not present. Both points of view may be a little bit right and a little bit wrong, but The Spirit is not present until full unity is achieved. And The Spirit, in His Fullness, is a spirit of Truth and of Love. Not of accusation and personal attack for the sake of being attacking and hurtful to the other. "Truth without Love can only every be at most, a half truth".

Scripture appears to contradict itself adopting the manner of understanding of reby, and contradiction is to make a liar of The Holy Spirit. Scripture does not contradict itself, nor is The Holy Spirit a liar. Notice that St Paul states "WE have the mind of Christ" (another translation is "But God has revealed it to [u][b]US[/b][/u] by His Spirit", not "I have the mind of Christ" or "God has revealed it to me by His Spirit". This denotes a collective common understanding, not an individual one. We do know from Acts that Peter and Paul did have a point of disagreement and that this disagreement was resolved. From the very beginning The Church has strived to be unified and this continues today. In the early years of Christianity, for example, all sorts of things were being taught based on Scriptural understandings, so that meetings were called by The Church to settle these points of disunity and they were settled. Now a collective understanding can mean that all are deceived; however, Jesus has said "The Gates of Hell shall not prevail" and since the time of Christ to today, only The Catholic Church can trace our line right back to Jesus. If the Gates of Hell prevail, then there will be total and absolute disunity and discord reigning over all.

The Gates of Hell are Satan and Satan is discord and disunity, the lack of love and truth. Certainly the Gates of Hell at times and including in our day have waged a war on The Catholic Church - battles won and battles lost, betrayal even within and Jesus was betrayed by one of His own. Jesus has assured us that He will win the war and the Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ on earth and our unity is in The Spirit, in love and in truth - despite all attacks.

Unity is very close to The Heart of Jesus for the Heart of Jesus is The Spirit. The prayer of Jesus at his final meal with His apostles before His death "That they may be One, Father, as We are One."

Edited October 13, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

[size=6][sub]Just to take my points a little further. If The Catholic Church is not of The Holy Spirit, then somewhere along the line the Gates of Hell have indeed prevailed, for The Catholic Church alone can trace itself as linked to the time of Jesus and His Apostles and the Promise of Jesus that the Gates of Hell shall never prevail. If The Catholic Church should collapse, then the Promise of Jesus is called into question and collapses also and then the whole of Scripture can be called into question. But The Catholic Church will never collapse and will prevail until Jesus Returns and we have The Promise of Jesus for this and all that we believe is enshrined in Scripture from which flows our Dogma and Doctrine and Tradition.[/sub][/size]

[size=6][sub]If we take something out of its context then full understanding is probably impossible certainly unlikely. The context of each passage of Scripture is the whole of Scripture in its entirety - and this is one reason we have Catholic Scripture Scholars and also theologians and these are highly educated people in their particular field of expertise, they can also have disagreements and be argumentative with each other. The heirarchy of The Catholic Church including The Holy Father settles these points of disagreement (our heirarchy and The Holy Father have the casting vote), and it has always been like this since the time of Jesus and His Apostles if our modern terminology (Scripture Scholar, Theologian) did not exist at certain points in our history. All the faithful under the heirarchy of The Catholic Church accepts the decisions of our heirarchy and The Holy Father on points of Faith and Morals. We are unified, we are one.[/sub][/size]

[size=6][sub][size=6][sub][size=5]We see Jesus having the casting vote when the apostles discuss who is to be the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. They are arguing. Jesus brings before them a little child and settles the dispute.[/size][/sub][/size][/sub][/size]

[size=6][sub]Satan is never 'up front' or very rarely so - it is a liar and the father of liars. Attacks on The Catholic Church are attacks on the Promise of Jesus that "The Gates of Hell shall never prevail" and only The Catholic Church can trace its lineage back to that Promise. Hence attacks on The Church as a whole or on individual membership is actually a veiled attack (waiting in the wings as it were) on the Promise of Jesus and that is an attack on the very Person of Jesus, truly human Truly God. If The Catholic Church can be broken, then the next step is an attack ont he Promise of Jesus and thus and then on Jesus Himself and His Identity - then the whole of Scripture can be brought into question. Then Christianity itself.[/sub][/size]

[size=6][sub]Those who attack The Church are usually totally unaware of the source of the provocation and 'inspiration', motivation, to do so and most often, I should think, totally unaware of the actual end long term goal(s) - the vainly hoped for final product. In essence, Satan is stupid. Of such great intelligence and logic, reasoning, it is entirely stupid. Satan fails to see the very obvious wood for all the trees.[/sub][/size]

[size=6][sub]Personally, I think that disagreements and disputes can be a real sign of health. A sign of searching for the actual Truth. But when we start to disagree and dispute leaving mutual esteem and respect, concern, out of the situation, then we are no longer in The Spirit -we have difted away from He who is Love and is Truth. We are all each and every one of us beloved children of God and created to purpose and remain so eternally, despite all things.[/sub][/size]

Edited October 13, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[Groo the Wanderer]

booyah to you BT. excellently stated! my hats off to you

[BarbTherese]

[size=1].......[size=4]thank you muchly for your kindness...............[/size][size=2] [/size][/size]

[reyb]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1350000110' post='2492522']
You know I am not. When you say "[color=#282828][font=Open Sans', sans-serif]‘For me, when God reveals that 'Jesus is Christ'. He already reveals everything about Him’." then you are speaking falsely. YOU do not get to decide what or if God reveals anything or everything to you. Again, you make false presumptions where you lack the authority to do so.[/font][/color]

[font=Open Sans, sans-serif][color=#282828]It seems to me the crux of the whole debate between you and Christianity is that you seize for yourself the authority to interpret scripture, put God into a box, and define what He has revealed and to whom. You even take it upon yourself to redefine Christ with this 'historical Jesus' nonsense. As Christians, we are much more humble. I pray the scales will fall from your eyes and they may be opened.[/color][/font]
[/quote]


You are not reading my words in a way it should be properly understood, and while you are giving your own meaning to my words, you immediately judged me of ‘speaking falsely’. If you are really humble as you say you are. You must have been at least asked me about my statement since I am the one who wrote it and not you. Yes, you will be correct in judging me if what you are saying is also what I am writing but you are distorting my words by putting your own meaning into it and then accused me of being a liar.

I said ‘when God reveals that ‘Jesus is Christ’. He already reveals everything about Him’. I want you to know that when I made that statement, I am referring to my Lord Jesus Christ and not to your historical Jesus Christ.

Up to now, you still do not undestand me why I call your Jesus, ‘the historical Jesus’. I call him that way in order to differentiate your Jesus to another Jesus who is still hidden from you. And since you believe in historical realization of the coming of Christ named Jesus which was fulfilled more or less 2000 years ago hence I called your Jesus, ‘The historical Jesus Christ’. There is another Jesus different from you historical Jesus. They are not one and the same Jesus which was proudly taught by your priests and preachers (Please see 2 Cor 11:3-4).

I am not saying there are two Jesuses who are both true. There is one and only one Christ of God. One is real the other is a counterfeit - a lie and a non-existing Christ. In your eyes, you see only one Jesus Christ and that is, the historical Jesus thus; you can say that other Jesus (who is my Jesus) is the non-existing Jesus. On the other hand, I can see them both. When God reveal to me his Christ, he exposed that this historical Jesus is a lie. Now, I know there is no historical Jesus at all and he is existing only in the mind of a believer but never in truth and reality.

I know where you are coming in making such incompetent statement – that I am speaking falsely. You are thinking I am referrring to your historical Jesus and his coming when I made that statement. Thus, you are now saying even if God reveals that Jesus is the Christ, it does not follow that everything about him was already revealed because you know very well that almost all things about him are unknown to you.

But again, I am not referring to your historical Jesus when I made that statement because I am referring to my Lord Jesus Christ who is still hidden even from your deepest mind. So, how can you stand in front of judgement seat of God in accusing me of being a liar since you do not know my Lord? In what way your statement become true since you do not know my God? How can you say it is not possible -that even in a single word he can reveals everything to me about Himself since you did not know him? How can you say it is not true since you are not me who have seen Him? Seek him first and when you found him then tell me if I am lying.

Thus, I asked you in my previous post (in the other topic) ‘If God’s revelation is not enough for you to know everything about Jesus Christ from whom do you expect to receive what is lacking in knowing Jesus?

And you cannot answer me because, you can see its truthfulness but you cannot accept the reality of not having it.

Edited October 13, 2012 by reyb