Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1349413638' post='2490224']


He didn't HAVE to die. He chose to. Check out St John, Chapter 10.


You are really making this more difficult than necessary.


[img]http://www.adorablekidsdressup.com/Cloud%20Nine%20Images/Troll_Dolls/exercise-troll.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Directing him to Scripture? How unconventional... (And in the end, ineffective too)

[reyb]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1349413638' post='2490224']


He didn't HAVE to die. He chose to. Check out St John, Chapter 10.


You are really making this more difficult than necessary.


[img]http://www.adorablekidsdressup.com/Cloud%20Nine%20Images/Troll_Dolls/exercise-troll.jpg[/img]
[/quote]


Groo,

thedude asked in the beginning of this topic....Why did Christ have to die? Couldn't God have forgiven sins without this?
And I also asked the same thing, why is the death of Jesus necessary to forgive sin?

[Groo the Wanderer]

you didnt bother to read it did you? of course not.

trolly trollstein from trolltown

[BarbTherese]

This was the Reading at Evening Prayer I tonight - it made me think of this thread:

Romans 11
"How great are God's riches! How deep are His Wisdom and Knowledge. Who can explain His Decisions - Who can understand His Ways? As the Scriputre says: Who knows the Mind of God?"

Daily in our own days, terrible things are happening to the good and the innocent at the hands of apparently evil people. The evil seem to prosper, while the good seem to have misery. It is a mystery, the why of it all. Jesus was one of these good and innocent who suffered at the hands of apparently evil people in His Life. The exact reason as to be precise knowledge, we cannot know and the above Reading underscores this. Sometimes not knowing can be ignorance. At other times, it can be humility in the Face of God and His Wisdom and Decisions and Jesus accepted His Father's Wisdom and Decisions wholeheartedly as He sweated drops of blood in terrible fear of what was to come "........if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me - but not My Will but Thine be done"
Jesus is aware of His coming crucifixion and sufferings and does not ask "Why?" and for obvious reasons (His Father knows in His Infinite Wisdom what is best) and knowing this, Jesus asks "if it be possible let this cup pass from Me" ........or, as it were, "if there is another way, I would rather avoid what is to come". He is asking a question of His Father's Infinite Wisdom, with absolute resignation to that Wisdom, whatever it may be.

The Catholic Catechism does give us an understanding of the why of it all as the theology of the Permissive Will of God. I think I have already quoted the relevant paragraphs in the CCC

Edited October 6, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

I dont think that reyb has yet given his understanding of "historical Jesus" and "Jesus of Scripture" to understand the difference in his determination, nor his understanding or speculating of why Jesus had to die?

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1348965538' post='2488234']
You bring billions of souls to eternal punishment because of your traditions and pride. You can see for yourself what kind of spirit is guiding you. You are saying, you have the spirit of Christ. But why then you cannot explain the reason of Jesus' death? Why did Jesus have to die?
[/quote]

Are you a muslim? I heard muslims believe knowledge is power? JESUS dies on the cross to experience pain and as a physical sign to show us that he/GOD understands our pain and suffering. This is just my feeble opinion. I don't know the catholic doctrine on the matter.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Honestly i need to say this. I think your all more trolls than reyb full of sarcasm and mockery not wit. Give reyb the benefit of the doubt that he is one whom is searching out truth in his own way, whether you like his approach or not. And even if it is a delibrate attack on what you belive he still has the right to dignity, JC "lo i say to thee,love even your enemies. What credit is there in loving only those whom love you,even the pagans do as such."

[BarbTherese]

I think that some probably have given their homest understanding of perhaps why Jesus died and that these understandings have been overlooked by reby who does not actively refute or ague against perhaps, just seens to ignore.
The foundation of the crucifixion and suffering of Jesus is obedience to God's Permissive Will.

Reby's Post on 4th October 2012 : [b]"But still, I can testify why he died and without his death no one will be saved."[/b]

I would be interested in reading your thoughts, reby. I think that if Jesus had refused to accept His cruel dying, then He would have had to disobey His Father's Permissive Will for the salvation of mankind - as mysterious as the essential "why" of it all is to us mere mortals in the face of The Divinity of God and His Divine Wisdom. There is much theological speculation about the reasons why Jesus died the death He did by criminal crucifixion, and that is what it remains: theological speculation for "who can know the Heart of Mind of God and understand His Ways". And this humble not knowing and not understanding is at the heart of Catholic theological teaching on the Permissive Will of God which upholds and proclaims loudly the Absolute Goodness of God in all things regardless - as per the previously quoted paragraphs in the Catholic Catechism.
As absolute sureness of knowledge, we cannot know, we can only speculate historically and/or theologically and we just might be right and we just might be wrong. Only God knows.

Edited October 6, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I was just listening to track 1 on the album 'universal' by foundnation. It explains it beautifully as to why GOD died for us, he died because he loves us and it is something we as humans can understand, to die for somone we love. Biblical jesus says "the greatest thing a man can do is to die for a friend." And i know that sounds contrary to my rebuke about loving even our enemies but jesus also says "it is easy to die for a good man." Which i have taken on board as not being so easy to die for a bad man. Biblical jesus encourages us to not have enemies and to love each other to the point of dying for another, even if we are not called to die for another we can still have that humble desire to do so if called upon. GOD becoming flesh and dying for us is the ultimate sacrifice of love that he would die for us even though we are still sinners and enemy to all that is good, GOD himself. And i'm typing out loud here.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1349523158' post='2490633']
I think that some probably have given their homest understanding of perhaps why Jesus died and that these understandings have been overlooked by reby who does not actively refute or ague against perhaps, just seens to ignore.
The foundation of the crucifixion and suffering of Jesus is obedience to God's Permissive Will.

Reby's Post on 4th October 2012 : [b]"But still, I can testify why he died and without his death no one will be saved."[/b]

I would be interested in reading your thoughts, reby. I think that if Jesus had refused to accept His cruel dying, then He would have had to disobey His Father's Permissive Will for the salvation of mankind - as mysterious as the essential "why" of it all is to us mere mortals in the face of The Divinity of God and His Divine Wisdom. There is much theological speculation about the reasons why Jesus died the death He did by criminal crucifixion, and that is what it remains: theological speculation for "who can know the Heart of Mind of God and understand His Ways". And this humble not knowing and not understanding is at the heart of Catholic theological teaching on the Permissive Will of God which upholds and proclaims loudly the Absolute Goodness of God in all things regardless - as per the previously quoted paragraphs in the Catholic Catechism.
As absolute sureness of knowledge, we cannot know, we can only speculate historically and/or theologically and we just might be right and we just might be wrong. Only God knows.
[/quote]


I guess the only surety is to love in faith with hope, and not seek to be loved.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[KnightofChrist]

But why did Earl have to die?

[To Jesus Through Mary]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1349524446' post='2490637']
But why did Earl have to die?
[/quote]

Because he ate the peas.

[Annie12]

I haven't read any posts but from what I understand, we are the mystical body of Christ and so Jesus died for our sins and basically took upon himself the punishment that we deserved....

edit: he paid the price for us

Edited October 6, 2012 by Annie12

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1349513345' post='2490622']
JESUS dies on the cross to experience pain and as a physical sign to show us that he/GOD understands our pain and suffering. This is just my feeble opinion. I don't know the catholic doctrine on the matter.
[/quote]
Not feeble, you are spot on!
[i]I could have called a legion of angels to save me from this terrible end. But how else could I show my love for you? How could I ask you to endure your pain if I had avoided mine? [/i]
[i]I am the way, no one comes to the Father except by me. (Including Death)[/i]
[i]No greater love doth a man have than he lays down his life for his friends.[/i]
In hearing the story of Jesus sacrifice for us we have put aside all the stories of doom and gloom... Hell and fear and see a creator who truly loves us. Jesus sacrifice on the cross is the greatest expression of love possible. There is nothing higher. In witnessing this we who believe know that we are home and have nothing to fear.

[BarbTherese]

Paul to the Romans, Chapter 6 : "[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=6&l=23#x"][23][/url] For the wages of sin is death. "

Jesus takes upon Himself all our sinfulness and also what that sinfulness has earned, it's wages or it's due.

The crucifixion and sufferings of Jesus can be approached from many angles (inexhaustible are the richness of Scripture). We can meditate, muse and speculate from an historical angle or from a theological angle. All our finite musings on the Infinite can have value to my mind. But what was in the Heart and Mind of God in permitting the terrible death of His Son, only God can know for absolutely sure. We can only meditate, muse and speculate and perhaps be humble to admit that this is exactly what it is.
I am interested in hearing what reby has to share and his thoughts.
[quote]
Romans Ch11 "
[31] So these also now have not believed, for your mercy, that they also may obtain mercy. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=11&l=32#x"][32][/url] For God hath [u]concluded all in unbelief[/u], that he may have mercy on all. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=11&l=33#x"][33][/url] O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways! [[url="http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=11&l=33#x"]Romans 11:33[/url]] [[url="http://drbo.org/x/d?b=lvb&bk=52&ch=11&l=33#x"]Latin[/url]] [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=11&l=34#x"][34][/url] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been his counsel
[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=11&l=27#x"][27][/url] And this is to them my covenant: when I shall take away their sins.

[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=11&l=28#x"][28][/url] As concerning the gospel, indeed, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are most dear for the sake of the fathers. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=11&l=29#x"][29][/url] For the gifts and the calling of God [u]are without repentance[/u]. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=11&l=30#x"][30][/url] For as you also in times past did not believe God, but now have obtained mercy, through their unbelief; .
[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=11&l=31#x"][31][/url] So these also now have not believed, for your mercy, that they also may obtain mercy. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=11&l=32#x"][32][/url] For God hath [u]concluded all in unbelief[/u], that he may have mercy on all. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=11&l=33#x"][33][/url][b] O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways! [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=11&l=34#x"][34][/url] For who hath known the mind of the Lord?[/b] [b]Or who hath been his counsel[/b] [/quote]