Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

[RC Patriot]

Your example give emphasis on repentance rather than justice, and even if you are deeply remorseful, it is still not in-tune with your theological principle. Because, in your little story the owner of that thing you stole is not you mother. (I mean, the owner from whom you steal it, is not the same person who pays for it in your behalf). While in your story of redemption, you commit sins against God and God himself pays for it for you.

 

This is actually our main topic. Why will your mother need to pay herself? Why not just say ‘forget it’?

 

My question in my previous post is.....

 

Where is God’s righteousness if someone pays for your sins? Why not you yourself must pay for it? If it is punishment for all eternity. So be it but, you are one who must pay for it and not anybody else.  Thus, I am asking where is God’s righteousness in that kind of redemption. 

 

I will wait for your answer.

 

You are not defining Justice. Allow me...

 

What is Justice?

"Justice is not just paying your debts, not just an external relationship between two or more people, but also and first of all the internal relationship within each individual among the parts of the soul." - Peter Kreeft

 

In my basic training on virtue it was stated simply as, Justice is giving to each person what they are due. In my example above, and indeed in every case of injustice, there are two things that occur: 1) Something that is due to a person is taken or not given, and 2) the injustice damages the relationship between the two parties. The thief steals, taking for himself what is due to another. One person can return what was stolen, and it does not have to be the thief, in order to give what is due to the offended party. In this way, the debt is repaid. What remains is the damaged relationship. That is why true contrition is required by the offender. No one can offer that for you. The thief must also go to the person and attempt to repair the relationship between them.

 

How does this relate to sins against God?

What is due to God is perfect obedience to his Will. When we sin, we act against that will. It is an injustice because we are not giving what is due to God. How can we make recompense for what was done? We cannot. We have offended an infinite being, and no matter what we do, we will never be able to perform enough good works to make up for even one instance of disobedience. Enter Christ. He pays the price for our sins, opening the door for us to repair the relationship with God through Christ himself.

 

Why not just say "forget it"?

God set up the Natural order for our benefit. The price for our sins does not stop at God alone. You cannot rob a bank and the go to confession, offering Christ's sacrifice as payment for your sins, and expect to go on your way with the money. You still owe the bank what the bank is due. The Natural Law of Justice demands that you repay the bank, repair the relationship as best you can, and only once you have done all of this, Natural Law has been fulfilled. If our sins against God were to be counted for nothing, God would be breaking his own law. This is not good. God demands Justice because Justice is good. And the Justice for sins against God is death. Do not confuse God's rightousness with your own imperfect sense of rightousness. We may not like it, but it is no less true. Hell exists. Those who reject God will be cast into hell. God's mercy despises it, but God's Justice demands it.

 

Yes, from the very beginning I joined in this forum. I already said, that there is another Jesus different from this historical Jesus. (see 2 Cor 11:4). 

 

Ah... well that one's easy... Those who have ears let them hear. This is the time to show your HUMILITY, reyb.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4

³ But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. ⁴ For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

 

This is similar to Galatians 1:6-9

⁶ I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— ⁷ not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. ⁸ But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! ⁹ As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!

 

But what does it mean?!?

The first, when taken out of context of verse 3, could sound as though it supports putting up with those who preach "another Jesus" or "a different Spirit" or a "different gospel." When taken in context, this is a fear of St. Paul's which he is expressing. He is exorting his readers to not let their minds be led astray, specifically by people like yourself who preach "another Jesus". Do not take this lightly, reyb. There is one God, revealed to us through his Son Jesus Christ, of which there is only one. St. Paul emphasizes twice that the one who preaches another gospel is to be accursed. Don't be that, brother.

 

Who are these witnesses  (Who taught Apostle Paul about Jesus) you are referring above? Are you referring to the like of Peter, John, James...etc  in the Gospel?

 

Acts 9

[reyb]

Let us discuss this first. You said....

 

 
Paul was an apostle taught by those who witnessed the life, death, and resurrection. That is the historical Jesus Paul was speaking of.

 

 

 

Who are these witnesses  (Who taught Apostle Paul about Jesus) you are referring above? Are you referring to the like of Peter, John, James...etc  in the Gospel?

 

 

Acts 9

 

Apostle Paul said in Gal 1:11-12 ‘11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.....’

 

He even further said (Gal 1:15-17)

 

‘But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, ....’

----------------------------------

Now, where did you get the idea that Apostle Paul learned about Jesus thru these witnesses you never mentioned in your previous post? Can you show me where are these witnesses in Acts 9?

Edited May 3, 2014 by reyb

[RC Patriot]

Apostle Paul said in Gal 1:11-12 ‘11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.....’

 

He even further said ‘Gal 1:15-17

 

‘But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, ....’

----------------------------------

Now, where did you get the idea that Apostle Paul learned about Jesus thru these witnesses you never mentioned in your previous post? Can you show me where are these witnesses in Acts 9?

 

No. At some point, you are going to have to take responsibility for your own faith. Read Acts. All of it. No more excuses. Go, read. Learn the gospel that St. Paul is teaching which YOU have rejected.

[reyb]

Ah... well that one's easy... Those who have ears let them hear. This is the time to show your HUMILITY, reyb.

 

2 Corinthians 11:3-4

³ But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. ⁴ For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

 

Don’t you realize that I can use the same verses against you? Because, you easily accepted that ‘Jesus is Lord’ from tradition. While on our part, or I may say, on my part, I only realized that ‘Jesus is Lord’ after I saw God’s revelation itself. 

 

Anyway...

[reyb]

So, let us discuss the following testimony of Apostle Paul. 

 

 

⁶ I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— ⁷ not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. ⁸ But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! ⁹ As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!

 

 

 

 

Who should teach you about this Gospel then?

[reyb]

No. At some point, you are going to have to take responsibility for your own faith. Read Acts. All of it. No more excuses. Go, read. Learn the gospel that St. Paul is teaching which YOU have rejected.

I do not make excuses. I am not the one who make excuses. Excuse me. Brother. You are the one (not me) who said Apostle Paul learn about Jesus thru witnesses. I am just simply asking you who are they. Because, I am very sure there is really none since he learned it thru a revelation and not by tradition. 

 

Do I reject any teaching of Apostle Paul? Well that is a good reminder. It is better if you can tell what in particular. Otherwise, it is just a simple accusation. 

Edited May 3, 2014 by reyb

[reyb]

Do not confuse God's rightousness with your own imperfect sense of rightousness. We may not like it, but it is no less true. Hell exists. Those who reject God will be cast into hell. God's mercy despises it, but God's Justice demands it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do not equate my righteousness to God’s righteousness. But I want you to explain to us the righteousness of God since you said, you are a theologian. (To me, a theologian is already a Spiritual Teacher).

 

Can you explain it or not? 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

 

 

There is only one Jesus reyb and he found me 10 years ago, may we all find him, and if looking in the wrong places, may he find us.

 

Jesus iz LORD!

Edited May 3, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[reyb]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

 

The important thing at this point, reyb, is to forget what you think you know and start fresh with a rational understanding of faith in HUMILITY. Even Doubting Thomas, who swore to not believe until he felt the wounds of Christ, believed when he was face to face with Christ. I worry that you would doubt even your own senses to your eternal peril.

 

......

 

 specifically by people like yourself who preach "another Jesus". Do not take this lightly, reyb. There is one God, revealed to us through his Son Jesus Christ, of which there is only one. St. Paul emphasizes twice that the one who preaches another gospel is to be accursed. Don't be that, brother.

 

 

 

 

Jesus iz LORD!

How many times, I will say I am fully aware that there is only one Jesus Christ? But, there is ‘another Jesus’ who is a ‘non existing one’. I know too that there is only one Gospel. But there is ‘another gospel which is no gospel at all’. To make it short, there is only one true Jesus Christ because, the other is a lie.

 

Now, I know that in your mind, heart and eyes that this historical Jesus is the true Jesus Christ. The reason is because, you still do not know what is that ‘other Jesus’ different from your historical Jesus. And how can you choose between them what is true and what is false if you cannot see them both? Do you think Apostle Paul do not know what is that 'other Jesus' and other gospel which is no gospel at all' he is talking?

 

Now, this ‘other Jesus’ different from your Jesus, who is still hidden from you, is actually the real one and not the historical Jesus Christ. Because, there is no historical Jesus Christ at all and there is no historical event of this coming.

 

This historical Jesus and his coming are just ‘false beliefs’ of your early fathers.

 

Of course, I know that you will not believe me (or hardly believe in me)  but still, I have to inform you.  Because, I know too that you do not want to worship a false God thru a false Christ. 

 

Thus, I am always saying ‘Seek the truth from God because, God alone can reveal his Christ’.

 

Again, no one, even if you are a true witness of God, even you are Apostle Paul himself, even all of us – (true witnesses, false witnesses, and those who do not care, whether in heaven and on earth) - gathered together as one, can reveal or made known to ourselves the real Jesus Christ. Because, Christ is the mystery of God and therefore, God alone can reveal his Christ.

 

Now, from whom do you get your knowledge about your Jesus Christ? Is it not from tradition (i.e. from man and not from God himself)? Actually, you get it from people who were not even true witnesses like Apostle Paul.  

 

So, how they can introduced to you the real One?

 

Do you really want me to humble myself to falsehood?

Edited May 3, 2014 by reyb

[maximillion]

Another mere woman here.......

 

If it is true, as you have so often stated in this thread, that God Himself reveals this secret wisdom to an individual, why are you trying to do so?

 

 

Leave it to God.

 

My personal opinion - if you were sitting in front of me I would say that I think you have a quite serious need to feel especially blessed.

And by serious, - I don't want to insult you, but it appears to me to be almost pathological in nature.

 

I therefore can't see the need to continue with this thread.

Be assured of my prayer for your healing.

[reyb]

Another mere woman here.......

 

If it is true, as you have so often stated in this thread, that God Himself reveals this secret wisdom to an individual, why are you trying to do so?

 

 

Leave it to God.

 

My personal opinion - if you were sitting in front of me I would say that I think you have a quite serious need to feel especially blessed.

And by serious, - I don't want to insult you, but it appears to me to be almost pathological in nature.

 

I therefore can't see the need to continue with this thread.

Be assured of my prayer for your healing.

I am not trying to reveal Him . As I have said, no one can do it. But, I am saying there is another Jesus because, you must be informed so that you will seek the real one. And that is what I am hoping for from you.

 

How can you find Him if you will not seek Him? And why will you seek Him if you say you already found Him? So, when you say 'Leave it to God'. It means, I have to let you go. Okay. I think I already did my part to you. 

 

Do you feel too important whenever you do your duty?  I do not have that kind of boasting anymore. How can I boast about myself? I cannot even reveal my Lord to anyone who ask me. But, in your part, it is very easy. 

 

It is really very funny. you insulted me then,  you will pray for me. Anyway...Whatever ....It means nothing to me. You just do not understand me.  

Edited May 3, 2014 by reyb

[Credo in Deum]

How many times, I will say I am fully aware that there is only one Jesus Christ? But, there is ‘another Jesus’ who is a ‘non existing one’. I know too that there is only one Gospel. But there is ‘another gospel which is no gospel at all’. To make it short, there is only one true Jesus Christ because, the other is a lie.

 

Now, I know that in your mind, heart and eyes that this historical Jesus is the true Jesus Christ. The reason is because, you still do not know what is that ‘other Jesus’ different from your historical Jesus. And how can you choose between them what is true and what is false if you cannot see them both? Do you think Apostle Paul do not know what is that 'other Jesus' and other gospel which is no gospel at all' he is talking?

 

Now, this ‘other Jesus’ different from your Jesus, who is still hidden from you, is actually the real one and not the historical Jesus Christ. Because, there is no historical Jesus Christ at all and there is no historical event of this coming.

 

This historical Jesus and his coming are just ‘false beliefs’ of your early fathers.

 

Of course, I know that you will not believe me (or hardly believe in me)  but still, I have to inform you.  Because, I know too that you do not want to worship a false God thru a false Christ. 

 

Thus, I am always saying ‘Seek the truth from God because, God alone can reveal his Christ’.

 

Again, no one, even if you are a true witness of God, even you are Apostle Paul himself, even all of us – (true witnesses, false witnesses, and those who do not care, whether in heaven and on earth) - gathered together as one, can reveal or made known to ourselves the real Jesus Christ. Because, Christ is the mystery of God and therefore, God alone can reveal his Christ.

 

Now, from whom do you get your knowledge about your Jesus Christ? Is it not from tradition (i.e. from man and not from God himself)? Actually, you get it from people who were not even true witnesses like Apostle Paul.  

 

So, how they can introduced to you the real One?

 

Do you really want me to humble myself to falsehood?

 

How do you know there is a Jesus Christ?  How did God reveal this mystery to you? 

[Guest]

Lol

[reyb]

How do you know there is a Jesus Christ?  How did God reveal this mystery to you? 

When I see myself like a metatron then I realized who is my Lord after it was gone. This is how you will see your body which is actually not your body anymore. That body is burning like the burning bush of Moses in the sacred mountain. You are like that man mentioned by Apostle Paul who was taken up in paradise, the man of lawlessness.

 

After that I realized who is my Lord. He is me in the very beginning but, now he left me for a while to come back again and I will be gone forever in Him. 

Edited May 4, 2014 by reyb

[reyb]

Let us go back to the issue raised by RC Patriot that Apostle Paul is referring to the Jewish scripture. 

 

..........

And this is what they believed. That a boy named Jesus was born in Nazareth from a virgin mother named Mary. She was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and thus, he has no human father but, he has a surrogate father named Joseph, a carpenter. At age of 30 he began his ministry about the kingdom of God within the vicinity of Jerusalem, and in doing it he chosed 12 unschooled persons as his disciples. While he is doing his ministry, he perform miracles like healing of incurable diseases; feeds thousands of people with few fish and bread; turns water to wine, and he even raise a dead person from his tomb. Then, after 3 years of his ministry, he was crucified without any apparent reason except in doing his father’s will. He was crucified, died and after 3 days resurrected from the dead just like what he himself prophesied.

 

Now, where did your early fathers get this kind of belief since they themselves never see him and this event?

 

They say, it comes from a humour during those days. They are practically saying it comes from a ‘word of mouth’ running around the community before, it was literary written. But, Apostle Paul mentioned in his letter in 1 Cor 15:3-8 ‘‘Christ died for our sins according to the scripture’. While your early father said ‘it comes from a humour’.

 

Apostle Paul was definitely not referring to the bible we know today. Neither to any of the four Gospels in the bible because, the Gospel of Mark was written in c65-80AD, Gospel of Matthew c80-100, Gospel of Luke c80-130AD and Gospel of John c90-120AD. While Apostle Paul’s First Letter to the Corinthians was dated circa 50-60AD. (Please see http://www.earlychristianwritings.com)

 

 

 

 

 

In the words of GEICO, "Everybody knows that." Paul was a Jew. Jews had scripture. Christ died in accordance with the prophecies presented in the Jewish Scripture. Why is this confusing for you?
 

 

 

I am not confuse. You just think I am confuse because, you are not listening well.

 

Of course, Apostle Paul is referring to Jewish scripture. Actually, this same scripture used by Apostle Paul was accepted by other Jews when they are in public debate. (Acts 18:28). Just in like in our case, will you accept the words of Prophet Muhammad if I will used it? Of course, not. So, I must used the Christian Bible. Isn’t it.

 

Now, according to your Church’s tradition, and you can verify this to your own records, that they (your early fathers) claimed that they learned their belief about the historical coming of Christ thru a ‘rumor’. While Apostle Paul was already saying in his letter 'according to the scripture'. (Please 1 Cor 15:3-8). 

 

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

 

Okay. Let us agree that the Jewish scripture prophesied that Christ will suffer and die but, can you not really see that he is using the same scripture as if this prophesy was already fulfilled? 

Edited May 4, 2014 by reyb