Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

[reyb]

The opposite is interesting.  I wonder what questions would be asked of us if Jesus had had a totally successful life with much fame and recognition all the way and died a heralded serene and peaceful death and we claimed Him as our Saviour?  And most especially since our free will would remain intact and sin, suffering and death persevered in our own lives.

Nonetheless, I agree with RC Patriot, that the question posed in this thread is an important one and we need to be able to respond to questions posed to us.  It is possible that no matter how enlightened the answers and to the point or points posed, no answer whatsoever will suffice and all efforts to respond probably quite futile.

This is a total waste of time and everything you will get from this discussion end up useless because, according to the scripture Jesus died. 

[reyb]

One reason that I can think of and in previous posts have tried anyway to avoid the strictly theological in order to meet the terms posed for responding to the question:
 
Firstly, God could have saved mankind without the death of Jesus, since God can do all things.
 
God gave us free will and does not take it back.  Hence sin and the consequences : suffering and death remain with us after the death of Jesus.
 
  Through His death, Jesus gives us a witness and example of how suffering and death is to be embraced in our own lives since because of free will and sin, death and suffering will remain with us until the end of time -  and in His Death, we are given a witness and example of how suffering and death can be embraced and overcome - made  powerfully holy and we see this taking place often in the lives of our saints.  As Jesus dies temporarily and is resurrected, so we too, in Him, will die and be resurrected.
 
Jesus had free will, He did not HAVE to accept His terrible death.  He chose to do so and enter fully into cause and effect i.e. fully human and one of us.  Embracing and identifying fully with us.
In His Resurrection, we see The Father accepting Him under His terms as it were i.e. fully human and one of us and The Father affirming as it were "This is my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".  But Jesus does not go to The Father alone, He has embraced and identified with us and in accepting Jesus, The Father must - as it were - accept us as well and - as it were - the terms of Jesus, who leaves with us a witness and example on how to deal with suffering and death in our own lives and be victorious over it, rather than overcome by it.
 
 
 
 
 
Well said

Our issue is not about how we should accept death or the nasty death of Jesus. But, why Jesus must to die so that sins will be forgiven. This issue is not even salvation but forgiveness. They (non Christians especially Muslims) are practically saying, God do not need any ‘atoning sacrifice’ in whatever form (whether heart of man just like in Aztech, blood and meat of animal or whatever, even blood of Jesus) to forgive sins.
 
 

 â€˜â€¦. the act of atoning (for one’s misdeeds) and seeking Allah’s forgiveness has also been discussed in the Quran with much importance. For those believers who have wronged themselves, the asks them to become repentant, seek Allah’s forgiveness, and make a sincere tawba, and assures them that if they do this, Allah will forgive them, and exonerate them from their misdeeds.
 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repentance_in_Islam).

 
Thus, they are now asking (even other Christians are curious about it), Why did Jesus have to die? Couldn’t God forgive sins without this? Of course, God can forgive sins without any ‘atoning sacrifice’ from man. Actually, God hates them. So, Why did Jesus have to die?

Edited April 27, 2014 by reyb

[BarbTherese]

I think you have already been given logical reasons why Jesus had to die but you seem to just ignore these.  And just to reiterate one point, God could have forgiven all sin without the death of Jesus and this is Catholic teaching as are the reasons why He did die. 
What you have done, it seems to me, in your post above is contested the theological reasons  given, which to me are complex and beyond me, why Jesus had to die - while you are asking for logical reasons.

You have not addressed the logical reasons given why Jesus had to die and there have been a few stated and I have not read the entire thread.  As a poster, it does SEEM to me that it is futile to post logical reasons as they are completely ignored and I do not at all mean to be offensive but to state things as they appear to me and my apologies if my post is read as offensive.

God did not need the terrible death of Jesus per se - rather His complete obedience embracing His fully human status in cause and effect though it did involve His terrible death.  His death was never God's demand and requirement, rather His complete obedience and as a fully human person.

 

I think the question posed and in logical responses rather than the theological have already been given and more than once.  Your questions is answered and in the terms you have asked.

 

Edited April 27, 2014 by BarbaraTherese

[add]

Everybody, everything, of Earth dies

Edited April 28, 2014 by add

[reyb]

I think you have already been given logical reasons why Jesus had to die but you seem to just ignore these.  And just to reiterate one point, God could have forgiven all sin without the death of Jesus and this is Catholic teaching as are the reasons why He did die. 
What you have done, it seems to me, in your post above is contested the theological reasons  given, which to me are complex and beyond me, why Jesus had to die - while you are asking for logical reasons.

You have not addressed the logical reasons given why Jesus had to die and there have been a few stated and I have not read the entire thread.  As a poster, it does SEEM to me that it is futile to post logical reasons as they are completely ignored and I do not at all mean to be offensive but to state things as they appear to me and my apologies if my post is read as offensive.

God did not need the terrible death of Jesus per se - rather His complete obedience embracing His fully human status in cause and effect though it did involve His terrible death.  His death was never God's demand and requirement, rather His complete obedience and as a fully human person.

 

I think the question posed and in logical responses rather than the theological have already been given and more than once.  Your questions is answered and in the terms you have asked.

I know,  you believe that your sins were redeemed thru his death more or less 2000 years ago. But, it is just a ‘belief’.

Now, the problem runs to the question on… How can you explain the relationship of your sins to his death considering he already died and resurrected even before you lived in this world?

 

Let us make a little presentation. Suppose, we never sinned and never will for our whole life time. It only follows,  Jesus’ death is not needed. Or he will never be crucified and died as a ‘redemption’ because, he has nothing to die for. But of course, all of us sinned and therefore, ‘He died because of our sins’. (Again, this is just for presentation).

 

And since we are aware of our ‘sinful act’ meaning, we know what are God’s laws before we violated them – although this not the case if we really read the scripture carefully - then, it should be us, all of us who sinned, who put him to death.

 

Now, to make it with proper argument and for real, we should be and must be present during that day of crucifixion and shouting ‘crucify him, crucify him’ or ‘No, do not crucify him’. You may say, this presentation is illogical, irrational and stupendous presentation. Of course, I know it because, you cannot turn back the clock so to speak. But, how can you ever explain the relationship of your sins to his death for real?

 

And even if you are there during that time (Again, this is just for presentation), you will never have your forgiveness and salvation. Because, if you say ‘Crucify him, crucify him’. Then, you belong to them who are hypocrites. And if you say ‘Do not crucify him’. Then, you belong to people who are against God’s plan of redemption and you will be branded as listening to Satan.

 

So where is you redemption and forgiveness in that kind of scenario. Or Where is God’s righteousness in that kind of ‘atoning sacrifice’? 

Edited April 28, 2014 by reyb

[AugustineA]

I know,  you believe that your sins were redeemed thru his death more or less 2000 years ago. But, it is just a ‘belief’.

Now, the problem runs to the question on… How can you explain the relationship of your sins to his death considering he already died and resurrected even before you lived in this world?

 

Wrong. It is reality. Point in fact regardless of your belief--truth exists independent of opinion.

 

Let us make a little presentation. Suppose, we never sinned and never will for our whole life time. It only follows,  Jesus’ death is not needed. Or he will never be crucified and died as a ‘redemption’ because, he has nothing to die for. But of course, all of us sinned and therefore, ‘He died because of our sins’. (Again, this is just for presentation).

 

Truthfully, all men have sinned. 

 

And since we are aware of our ‘sinful act’ meaning, we know what are God’s laws before we violated them – although this not the case if we really read the scripture carefully - then, it should be us, all of us who sinned, who put him to death.

 

Now, to make it with proper argumentl and real, we should be and must be present during that day of crucifixion and shouting ‘crucify him, crucify him’ or ‘No, do not crucify him’. You may say, this presentation is illogical, irrational and stupendous presentation. Of course, I know it because, you cannot turn back the clock so to speak. But, how can you ever explain the relationship of your sins to his death for real?

 

The reality of sin is more than merely temporal. The slightest sin is infinitely damaging to the immortal soul and infinitely offensive to an infinite God, through space, time, and deed. When Jesus sweat blood in the garden it was the weight of infinite sin carried by God Himself, in a human body. 

 

And even if you are there during that time (Again, this is just for presentation), you will never have your forgiveness and salvation. Because, if you say ‘Crucify him, crucify him’. Then, you belong to them who are hypocrites. And if you say ‘Do not crucify him’. Then, you belong to people who are against God’s plan of redemption and you will be branded as listening to Satan. 

 

You have forgotten the message: forgiveness. Every sin is engaged in the crucifixion. Every attempt at repentance and good will is accepted because of his mercy and through his agony. St. Paul refers to it as a race, as spiritual athletes. 

 

So where is you redemption and forgiveness in that kind of scenario. Or Where is God’s righteousness in that kind of ‘atoning sacrifice’? 

 

Look you're here, spending your time coming up with twisted hypotheticals. You're obviously here for a reason. Have the courage to accept the hard truth and convert. God bless.. 

Edited April 28, 2014 by AugustineA

[BarbTherese]

I know,  you believe that your sins were redeemed thru his death more or less 2000 years ago. But, it is just a ‘belief’.

Now, the problem runs to the question on… How can you explain the relationship of your sins to his death considering he already died and resurrected even before you lived in this world?

 

Let us make a little presentation. Suppose, we never sinned and never will for our whole life time. It only follows,  Jesus’ death is not needed. Or he will never be crucified and died as a ‘redemption’ because, he has nothing to die for. But of course, all of us sinned and therefore, ‘He died because of our sins’. (Again, this is just for presentation).

 

And since we are aware of our ‘sinful act’ meaning, we know what are God’s laws before we violated them – although this not the case if we really read the scripture carefully - then, it should be us, all of us who sinned, who put him to death.

 

Now, to make it with proper argument and for real, we should be and must be present during that day of crucifixion and shouting ‘crucify him, crucify him’ or ‘No, do not crucify him’. You may say, this presentation is illogical, irrational and stupendous presentation. Of course, I know it because, you cannot turn back the clock so to speak. But, how can you ever explain the relationship of your sins to his death for real?

 

And even if you are there during that time (Again, this is just for presentation), you will never have your forgiveness and salvation. Because, if you say ‘Crucify him, crucify him’. Then, you belong to them who are hypocrites. And if you say ‘Do not crucify him’. Then, you belong to people who are against God’s plan of redemption and you will be branded as listening to Satan.

 

So where is you redemption and forgiveness in that kind of scenario. Or Where is God’s righteousness in that kind of ‘atoning sacrifice’? 

 

We seem to be shifting the subject completely from "Why did Jesus have to die?" and raising the theological while previously insisting on the logical appealing to human reason.

 

Confusing!

 

I suspect that no matter the responses received either logical or theological and no matter how sound in presentation and argument, efforts will be made (to date successful)  to continue this thread of approximately 290 posts by whatever manner can be conceived.

 

There seems to me to be a distinct agenda to challenge Catholic belief for the sake of it.  It is rightly said that "truth exists independent of opinion" (post by Augustinea)

 

I'm outta here!  :)
 

[reyb]

We seem to be shifting the subject completely from "Why did Jesus have to die?" and raising the theological while previously insisting on the logical appealing to human reason.

Confusing!

I suspect that no matter the responses received either logical or theological and no matter how sound in presentation and argument, efforts will be made (to date successful) to continue this thread of approximately 290 posts by whatever manner can be conceived.

There seems to me to be a distinct agenda to challenge Catholic belief for the sake of it. It is rightly said that "truth exists independent of opinion" (post by Augustinea)

I'm outta here! :)

My point is this. There is no rational or logical explanation to that kind of sacrifice no matter what you do. Because, this atoning sacrifice was not from God but from the Spirit of this world.

[add]

My point is this. There is no rational or logical explanation to that kind of sacrifice no matter what you do. Because, this atoning sacrifice was not from God but from the Spirit of this world.

There is no rational or logical explanation to your "Spirit of the world" theory

[Credo in Deum]

Hebrews, Chapter 9

 

11 But Christ, being come an high priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, that is, not of this creation:

12 Neither by the blood of goats, or of calves, but by his own blood, entered once into the holies, having obtained eternal redemption.

13 For if the blood of goats and of oxen, and the ashes of an heifer being sprinkled, sanctify such as are defiled, to the cleansing of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who by the Holy Ghost offered himself unspotted unto God, cleanse our conscience from dead works, to serve the living God?

15 And therefore he is the mediator of the new testament: that by means of his death, for the redemption of those transgressions, which were under the former testament, they that are called may receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where there is a testament, the death of the testator must of necessity come in.

17 For a testament is of force, after men are dead: otherwise it is as yet of no strength, whilst the testator liveth.

18 Whereupon neither was the first indeed dedicated without blood.

19 For when every commandment of the law had been read by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,

20 Saying: This is the blood of the testament, which God hath enjoined unto you.

21 The tabernacle also and all the vessels of the ministry, in like manner, he sprinkled with blood.

22 And almost all things, according to the law, are cleansed with blood: and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

23 It is necessary therefore that the patterns of heavenly things should be cleansed with these: but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Jesus is not entered into the holies made with hands, the patterns of the true: but into heaven itself, that he may appear now in the presence of God for us.

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holies, every year with the blood of others:

26 For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world: but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:

28 So also Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many; the second time he shall appear without sin to them that expect him unto salvation.

 

Another great read, would be this:  Sin is in the Blood: by Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

[AugustineA]

My point is this. There is no rational or logical explanation to that kind of sacrifice no matter what you do. Because, this atoning sacrifice was not from God but from the Spirit of this world.

 

 

Spirit of this world? Where have you heard of a story of the hero dying for the villain? Everything about it is opposite of nature. 

[reyb]

Spirit of this world? Where have you heard of a story of the hero dying for the villain? Everything about it is opposite of nature. 

Credo, Thank you for posting these verses again for our ready references and (add) I will explain too why I said your ‘atoning sacrifice’ was not from God but, from the Spirit of this world.

[add]

Credo, Thank you for posting these verses again for our ready references and (add) I will explain too why I said your ‘atoning sacrifice’ was not from God but, from the Spirit of this world.

Hay Rebo,
Your declaration that "There is no rational or logical explanation" for the death of Christ is both preposterous and outrageous.
Do you doubt as St Thomas once did , so long ago? Edited April 29, 2014 by add

[reyb]

Hay Rebo,
Your declaration that "There is no rational or logical explanation" for the death of Christ is both preposterous and outrageous.
Do you doubt as St Thomas once did , so long ago?

It is true that ‘Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for forgiveness of sins’ but, not in a way you think it was. There is a big difference between sacrifice offered by men to God and sacrifice offered by God to man. Later, I will go back in this issue.

 

Now, If Apostle Paul is truly referring to your historical Jesus as the sacrificial offering for forgiveness of sins. Then, I will admit you are correct and I am wrong. But, before I continue my deliberation, please bear in mind that my intention in doing this is not to shame or insult anybody. Neither, I am discouraging anyone to continually believing in God and his Christ. But to remind you once again that you must seek the truth from God himself if you really wanted to be a true disciple of Christ or to be truly equal with us as Apostle Paul said in 2 Cor 11:12.

 

Let me refreshed our memory as a backgrounder. We all know that your early fathers like Ignatius of Antioch believed that the coming of the Jewish Messiah is a historical event and a historical reality. Actually, the arrangement of books in the bible, and how these books chosen among many sacred writings, was made or compiled based on this belief.

 

And this is what they believed. That a boy named Jesus was born in Nazareth from a virgin mother named Mary. She was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and thus, he has no human father but, he has a surrogate father named Joseph, a carpenter. At age of 30 he began his ministry about the kingdom of God within the vicinity of Jerusalem, and in doing it he chosed 12 unschooled persons as his disciples. While he is doing his ministry, he perform miracles like healing of incurable diseases; feeds thousands of people with few fish and bread; turns water to wine, and he even raise a dead person from his tomb. Then, after 3 years of his ministry, he was crucified without any apparent reason except in doing his father’s will. He was crucified, died and after 3 days resurrected from the dead just like what he himself prophesied.

 

Now, where did your early fathers get this kind of belief since they themselves never see him and this event?

 

They say, it comes from a humour during those days. They are practically saying it comes from a ‘word of mouth’ running around the community before, it was literary written. But, Apostle Paul mentioned in his letter in 1 Cor 15:3-8 ‘‘Christ died for our sins according to the scripture’. While your early father said ‘it comes from a humour’.

 

Apostle Paul was definitely not referring to the bible we know today. Neither to any of the four Gospels in the bible because, the Gospel of Mark was written in c65-80AD, Gospel of Matthew c80-100, Gospel of Luke c80-130AD and Gospel of John c90-120AD. While Apostle Paul’s First Letter to the Corinthians was dated circa 50-60AD. (Please see http://www.earlychristianwritings.com)

 

(Let me finish first)

Edited April 29, 2014 by reyb

[reyb]

Anyway, whatever scripture Apostle Paul is referring in his letter in 1 Corinthians. I will let it to your own judgement. It is not too important anymore in our discussion. Since, it was already a fact that your early fathers claimed and believed that this historical Jesus is the same Jesus Apostle Paul was saying in all his letters.

 

Actually, they fought too hard to defeat another type of Christians known as Gnostic Christians. Who also believed and claimed that their ghost-like Jesus Christ is from the teaching of Apostle Paul too. (Please see Valentinus follower of  Theudas follower of Apostle Paul in Goggle search).

 

They  (Gnostic Christians like Marcionites) are the first who compiled the book of Luke and letters of Apostle Paul into one book known as ‘The Canon of Marcion’. (Please see Canon of Marcion in Goggle seach). Ironically, they do not looked at the narrative of Luke as a historical reality, unlike your early fathers.  Instead they used this book as a ‘Christian literature’ in order to acquire a much higher knowledge which they called Gnosis or ‘Secret Knowlege’.

 

Again, it is not important whatever ‘secret wisdom’ they are saying. To me, Apostle Paul’s  ‘Secret Wisdom’ is none other than Jesus Christ himself for He is the ‘Wisdom of God’. (1 Cor 1:24,1 Cor 2:7).