Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

[TheLordsSouljah]

I know you are not yet accusing me of anything in your previous post that is why I said ‘you may accuse me....’. Nevertheless, you are trying to imply something else when you said ‘I just hope the Jesus that you believe in is the one that teaches Matt 5:9.’ 

Now, you are directly accusing me of twisting something as if I am cheating or double dealing with you. Anyway, I will not take it as an insult but a statement in clarifying things so let me explain further what I am saying.

First, I am truly saying that there are two different Jesus Christ. One is your Jesus whom I called historical Jesus Christ and my Lord Jesus whom I called the real One. Of course, you can call it the other way around if you want. You can call your Jesus as the real Jesus Christ and you may call my Jesus whatever you want since you do not know him. But it is just the same, I am truly saying we have different Jesus Christ and they are not one and the same.

Second, as I have said I was once a Catholic and therefore it is not hard for us to understand each other if we will talked about (your) Jesus. I called your Jesus the historical Jesus Christ because of a ‘belief’ by people like Ignatius that this Christ has already come ‘historically’. I want to remind you that ‘none’ among all witnesses and writers of the scripture, even Luke, saw this historical Jesus Christ. Even your early fathers never saw this Jesus. Nonetheless, they (including you) still believe that this historical Jesus is the same Jesus Apostle Paul is proclaiming. That is why I said this historical Jesus and his coming is just a belief and not a reality. Obviously, your early fathers did not see or failed to give too much attention on Apostle Paul’s warning regarding â€˜other’ Jesus in 2 Cor 11:3-4.

Third, I know you believe in you heart that you already found the real Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, I am still asking you to seek the real one because I was once like you who believe seeing Christ by heart through faith but not in reality. Actually, what I am trying to say is something like this. Do you really saw Jesus Christ in the same way all witnessess like Apostle Paul saw Him? And that is the kind of ‘seeing’ I am asking and wanting to hear from you.

Fourth, my previous post is not directly and solely for you. It is a general statement for anyone who may read it. Fifth, I am glad that you too believe that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Therefore, it is not hard for me to ask, why it is not possible to see Jesus the way they saw him?  Sixth, it is very refreshing to hear something like that. Seventh, “     “.

Eight, you read 2 Peter 1:20 wrongly. It is not about ‘individual interpretation’ of a person who read the scripture. The writer is simply saying ‘no prophecy comes from prophets themselves’ because it comes from the Spirit of Christ who guides them in writing this prophecy. (1 Peter 1:11).

Actually, your statement will hold the weak who will try to understand the scripture alone since you are saying that it is ‘unscriptural’ to read and interpret the scripture without the guidance of your elders or priest. If that is true, why then it is written in 1 John 2:26-27 that ‘you do not need anyone to teach you’?

Ninth, I know it. Actually, I am not seeking any convert. I am simply informing you that there is another Jesus different from yours. Again, I want to make it clear. I am not saying there are two Jesus Christ who are both ‘real’. There is one and only one true and real Jesus Christ. The ‘other’ is a counterfeit, a lie and a non-existing Jesus Christ.

Tenth, Seek the real one and you will find him.

 

Thanks for trying to think about it.

 

But please stop assuming that I believe in a 'historical Jesus'. Yes, I am going to agree with you that certainly only the real Jesus is real. I'm afraid though that I am going to have to disagree with you on the point that the real Jesus, and your definition of 'historical Jesus', one who has come to earth already, are actually one and the same person. The real Jesus came to earth already. Know it. So I'm just going to refer to Him as Jesus. thanks.

 

Hang on, so let me get this straight. You don't believe that Jesus has come to earth (that means you reject that our price has been paid, mentioned by Paul - he'd probably clonk that sort of person over the head), as you don't believe in your definition of 'historical Jesus'. You fire us with the Epistles and such, but you never use the Gospels. You say none of these people ever saw Jesus. That is hogwash, ma dear. The writer of John certainly saw Him. Obviously, Peter did, Paul did, as well as Matthew, Jude (Thaddeus), and the writers of all the post-Gospel books, barring Acts. I have done a protestant Bible study on the writers, as well as my own research. How much of the Bible do you believe?

 

Sounds like you have a pretty sad sounding religion, whatever it is. For us, we have the Lord show us His absolutely incredible love, by coming down from the unimaginable splendour of heaven, to the abhorrent sinfulness of earth, and die for us. You sound like you don't have any of that. We have Christ truly present in the Eucharist as you know, and I PERSONALLY KNOW HE IS THERE. Not from what anyone has told me. But I KNOW he is there. It may not be justified true belief, but I know. I have felt Him. I have seen the evidence of hundreds of miracles. Now how much of that do you have?

 

I love it how you are trying to get a ridiculous amount of Catholics (who have the same set of views), to accept the views that I'm sure you and only a handful have. I don't think a loving God would have only a minute few find the 'real Jesus' while let His beloved spouse, the Church, fall into error by following a lie. God loves us. I'm not sure what you think.

 

Have you considered seeking Jesus for real? You think you have found Him? Great! You probably have. In that case, we have found the same one, just with different ideas about what He has done. 

[TheLordsSouljah]

May the Lord bless you +

 

over the head,

 

with a hammer. 

 

pax!

 

:hmmm:  :deadhorse:  :mad:  :judge: :beg:  :nono:  :ohno:  :rip: 

[Groo the Wanderer]

owch!  you took the bait.   tsk tsk

[TheLordsSouljah]

owch!  you took the bait.   tsk tsk

True... though when one says their Catholic, you can find out their beliefs without prying them, but this one I can't find out short and sweet what the beliefs are. Probably should have given the hammer blessing a bit earlier.

[reyb]

True... though when one says their Catholic, you can find out their beliefs without prying them, but this one I can't find out short and sweet what the beliefs are. Probably should have given the hammer blessing a bit earlier.

 

 

According to Dei Verbum ( see http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html )

 

 

......

 

3. God, who through the Word creates all things (see John 1:3) and keeps them in existence, gives men an enduring witness to Himself in created realities (see Rom. 1:19-20). Planning to make known the way of heavenly salvation, He went further and from the start manifested Himself to our first parents. Then after their fall His promise of redemption aroused in them the hope of being saved (see Gen. 3:15) and from that time on He ceaselessly kept the human race in His care, to give eternal life to those who perseveringly do good in search of salvation (see Rom. 2:6-7). Then, at the time He had appointed He called Abraham in order to make of him a great nation (see Gen. 12:2). Through the patriarchs, and after them through Moses and the prophets, He taught this people to acknowledge Himself the one living and true God, provident father and just judge, and to wait for the Savior promised by Him, and in this manner prepared the way for the Gospel down through the centuries.

4. Then, after speaking in many and varied ways through the prophets, "now at last in these days God has spoken to us in His Son" (Heb. 1:1-2). For He sent His Son, the eternal Word, who enlightens all men, so that He might dwell among men and tell them of the innermost being of God (see John 1:1-18). Jesus Christ, therefore, the Word made flesh, was sent as "a man to men." (3) He "speaks the words of God" (John 3;34), and completes the work of salvation which His Father gave Him to do (see John 5:36; John 17:4). To see Jesus is to see His Father (John 14:9). For this reason Jesus perfected revelation by fulfilling it through his whole work of making Himself present and manifesting Himself: through His words and deeds, His signs and wonders, but especially through His death and glorious resurrection from the dead and final sending of the Spirit of truth. Moreover He confirmed with divine testimony what revelation proclaimed, that God is with us to free us from the darkness of sin and death, and to raise us up to life eternal.

 

---------------------------
 

That Jesus mentioned above (in De Verbum) is the one I called historical Jesus. He is your Jesus, Am I correct?

 

-------------------
 

Before we continue our discussion regarding witnesses, writers and passion of your Jesus, Can you  please tell me who is that ‘other’ Jesus mentioned by Apostle Paul in 2 Cor 11:4? (Or can you please explain this verse if you have any idea?)

Edited February 16, 2013 by reyb

[TheLordsSouljah]

 Darling, just saying, I'm Catholic. Go look it up in the catechism. That's what I believe. I'm trying to figure out what YOU believe. But you're not taking the hint. I refuse to argue with someone who won't put their beliefs straight out to me. It not only confuses me and everyone else, but draws it out more than I have time for. I need to go and evangelize other peoples. Happy trails, and I'd like to see your face in eternity. Ta ta!

[reyb]

 Darling, just saying, I'm Catholic. Go look it up in the catechism. That's what I believe. I'm trying to figure out what YOU believe. But you're not taking the hint. I refuse to argue with someone who won't put their beliefs straight out to me. It not only confuses me and everyone else, but draws it out more than I have time for. I need to go and evangelize other peoples. Happy trails, and I'd like to see your face in eternity. Ta ta!

 

 

If what you expect from me is to reveal to you who is my Lord Jesus Christ (which is of course different from your historical Jesus). Then, I have to remind you that only God can reveal his Christ. Christ is mystery of God and therefore only God can reveal his Christ. A witness can only testify but he has no power to reveal the only Christ of God. This is the reason why they always warn and remind their listeners to seek and wait for the lord come rather than to proclaim , ‘this is the Christ we believe accept him too’. 

 

You are asking me what I believe? So, this is what we believe. (Again I am not referring to your historical Jesus and I used the word ‘we’ since there are other witnesses too who have seen my Lord Jesus Christ).  Again, this is what we believe.

We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
 

And I believe too that if only you will seek the truth you will find Him since he rewards those who earnestly seek him. 

 

.

Edited February 16, 2013 by reyb

[Groo the Wanderer]

TLS - dont waste your time...just a baiting game.

[reyb]

TLS - dont waste your time...just a baiting game.

 

Noticeably, none of you can explain who is the other Jesus in the eyes of Apostle Paul thus all of you are running away. I asked it first because I want you to realize the impossibility of knowing one from the other without knowing them both. Truth exposes lies and therefore you must have known them if truth is really in you. Otherwise, you are still in the state of ‘impossiblity of knowing one from the other’.

It is once said, ‘God’s name is blasphemed by unbelievers because of you’ and it is now happening because you claim to be a true Christian like Apostle Paul but cannot explain why Christian God is not a â€˜blood thirsty God’ . It is a valid argument because you failed to explain this question -  ‘Why did Christ have to die? Couldn't God have forgiven sins without this?

Don’t you know the consequences of your doing? You are pulling down all witnesses like Apostle Paul as 'irrational' being. 

[Groo the Wanderer]

Reyb - nobody can explain because nobody knows what the floopy you are talking about.  Your qeustion has been explained as nauseum but you refuse to acknowledge that.

 

IMHO you are just playing games.

[Evangetholic]

Noticeably, none of you can explain who is the other Jesus in the eyes of Apostle Paul thus all of you are running away. I asked it first because I want you to realize the impossibility of knowing one from the other without knowing them both. Truth exposes lies and therefore you must have known them if truth is really in you. Otherwise, you are still in the state of ‘impossiblity of knowing one from the other’.

It is once said, ‘God’s name is blasphemed by unbelievers because of you’ and it is now happening because you claim to be a true Christian like Apostle Paul but cannot explain why Christian God is not a â€˜blood thirsty God’ . It is a valid argument because you failed to explain this question -  ‘Why did Christ have to die? Couldn't God have forgiven sins without this?

Don’t you know the consequences of your doing? You are pulling down all witnesses like Apostle Paul as 'irrational' being. 

 

I am not Catholic. I find you confusing. If your Jesus isn't the same Jesus other Christians worship, then you are in gross error and ought repent. If you are trying to communicate something else then please do choose other words. No one understands you.

[Nihil Obstat]

I am not Catholic. I find you confusing. If your Jesus isn't the same Jesus other Christians worship, then you are in gross error and ought repent. If you are trying to communicate something else then please do choose other words. No one understands you.

IIRC, Reyb has this weird idea that Jesus Christ as an historical figure is not the same as Jesus Christ the Messiah. I am not really sure, because I make a point to ignore him.

[Evangetholic]

IIRC, Reyb has this weird idea that Jesus Christ as an historical figure is not the same as Jesus Christ the Messiah. I am not really sure, because I make a point to ignore him.

 

an idol mayhap.

[reyb]

I am not Catholic. I find you confusing. If your Jesus isn't the same Jesus other Christians worship, then you are in gross error and ought repent. If you are trying to communicate something else then please do choose other words. No one understands you.

 

 

IIRC, Reyb has this weird idea that Jesus Christ as an historical figure is not the same as Jesus Christ the Messiah. I am not really sure, because I make a point to ignore him.

 

 

I think my words are very straightforward that there is another Jesus different from the Jesus you already know. Anyway, I will say it again.

Let me explain it further in this way. If you look at the entire Christianity, there are different Christian denominations or Churches. These different groups or Christian Churches (like Roman Catholic Church, Lutheran, Jehovah’s Witnesses, oneness Pentecostalism ....etc.) sometimes look at Jesus differently. Some of them do not consider Jesus as God but only the son of God like in case of Jehovah’s witnesses. Some of them look at Jesus as God from heaven as in the case of Oneness Pentacostanism, and most of them look at Jesus as the second person in the Trinity just like in the case of Roman Catholic Church and other Trinitarian churches.

Nevertheless, although they see Jesus in many ways but still, all of them are looking at the same Jesus Christ. Again they are not looking at different Jesus Christ but they are looking at the same Jesus Christ but they honour him differently.

 

Now, I am informing you that there is ‘another’ Jesus different from the Jesus this entire Christianity is already proclaiming. And this Jesus is still 'unknown' to you because he still not yet revealed to you by God himself.  The only Jesus that you see is the historical Jesus but there is 'another' Jesus different from this historical one.

 

Edited February 17, 2013 by reyb

[Evangetholic]

Oneness Pentecostals are not Christians, nor are Jehovah's Witnesses. If your Jesus is some being other than the Second Person of the Trinity who was born by the power of the Holy Ghost from the Virgin of Nazareth, then you worship some man's fantasy--not God the Son.