Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1351574688' post='2500199']
I am half thinking I should pony-spam this thread until it gets locked.
[/quote]
[media] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5ITowWn6Dg&feature=related [/media]

[reyb]

Since none of you can prove the reason why your Jesus had to die in order to forgive your sins, it is therefore very obvious that you are not having the same spirit with Apostle Paul who explains it very well through his letters. And because of your arrogance in pretending to be ‘Christians’ the words of Apostle Paul were nullified by people who do not accept him as a true witness of God.

 

For your info.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2013 by reyb

[Nihil Obstat]

Oh not this junk again.

I swear I will bring out the ponies.

[Evangetholic]

You bring billions of souls to eternal punishment because of your traditions and pride. You can see for yourself what kind of spirit is guiding you. You are saying, you have the spirit of Christ. But why then you cannot explain the reason of Jesus' death? Why did Jesus have to die?

 

I am not a Catholic. I am not even almost a fan of many aspects of Catholic Theology, man-centered, hide-bound in traditions that have little/no warrant in Scripture muddled theology of justification, BUT only a madman thinks the Roman Catholic Church is other than a Christian Church. Catholics believe in the Incarnation of God the Son, the Triune Nature of God, the Virgin Birth, substitutionary atonement, the dual natures of Christ, etc. The majority of the visible church is Catholic (globally) and probably the majority of the truly regenerate are as well. There is a difference between opposition to error and abusive speach that turns the grace of God into a lie by damning believing Christians.

[Groo the Wanderer]

Catholic Church.  Roman is but one of the rites within the Church.

[KnightofChrist]

Oh not this junk again.
I swear I will bring out the ponies.

Be real son, be real real son.

[dairygirl4u2c]

im reminded of....

which reminds me of...

[reyb]

Oh not this junk again.

I swear I will bring out the ponies.

 

 

I am not a Catholic. I am not even almost a fan of many aspects of Catholic Theology, man-centered, hide-bound in traditions that have little/no warrant in Scripture muddled theology of justification, BUT only a madman thinks the Roman Catholic Church is other than a Christian Church. Catholics believe in the Incarnation of God the Son, the Triune Nature of God, the Virgin Birth, substitutionary atonement, the dual natures of Christ, etc. The majority of the visible church is Catholic (globally) and probably the majority of the truly regenerate are as well. There is a difference between opposition to error and abusive speach that turns the grace of God into a lie by damning believing Christians.

I am aware of what you are saying about Roman Catholic Church and I already discussed it in my other topic ‘One True Church’ that the Roman Catholic Church is the most ‘prestigious’ Christian Church since she was believed to be the Church founded by Jesus Christ himself. I should have known it because I was once a Catholic and never become a protestant in whatever form.

Roman Catholic Church has the right to claim as the oldest, well-structured and strongest church as against her counterpart but it does not necessarily mean she is the body of Christ in its truest sense of the word because, Catholics (together with Protestants) are looking to the One I called historical Jesus.

My point is simple in saying they (Christians of today and Apostle Paul together with all the Holy Prophets of God) are not having the same spirit because they are seeing and honoring different Jesus Christ. Christians in the order of Ignatius and their group are looking at this non-existing historical Jesus Christ while Apostle Paul and other true witnesses are not.

 

I am saying this because I want you (all of you) to be informed. Seek the real one and you will see Him.

  

Edited February 9, 2013 by reyb

[Groo the Wanderer]

[reyb]

Be real son, be real real son.

 

 

 

You said ‘Be real son’ so let us all discuss this with all honesty, sincerity and without any impurity in our intention. If your intention in teaching others is pure then you must remember - so I am too.  Now, if you think differently my intention will remain the same because I only wish one thing and that is - for all of you to be informed that there is no historical Jesus Christ since there is another Jesus different from this 'historical one'

 

Abraham saw Jesus Christ long before your early church fathers like Ignatius believed your historical Jesus Christ has come.

 

We all know this. We should not make for ourselves an image of God and worship it. We also know that Christ is the image of God. Now, since your early fathers lean on their own understanding that the Christ of God has already come in the person of your historical Jesus then, they did not obey God’s commandment. They never learn to listen to all witnesses when they said - wait for the lord to come. 

 

Edited February 9, 2013 by reyb

[TheLordsSouljah]

I cannot believe I have just wasted twenty minutes of my life on this thread... God touch your heart, bro, and all our hearts,... but, uh, really, your threads would drive a street evangeliser psycho. I just hope the Jesus that you believe in is the one that teaches Matt 5:9. But seriously, even from a philosophical point of view, it is impossible for any of us to come to a logical conclusion. You are coming from the perspective of one set of truths, and others from another. While you or anyone else may be a valid argument, the level of truth we are discussing is at the moment just too far above the basic level of truth we really need to sort out first. Otherwise we can just ramble on all day and waste our lives when we can't even see eye to eye on the most basic level. If we really were sorting out all our differences and we still had logical, valid arguments, then the truth might come out. 

 

Or we just have to agree to disagree.  :judge:  

[reyb]

I cannot believe I have just wasted twenty minutes of my life on this thread... God touch your heart, bro, and all our hearts,... but, uh, really, your threads would drive a street evangeliser psycho. I just hope the Jesus that you believe in is the one that teaches Matt 5:9. But seriously, even from a philosophical point of view, it is impossible for any of us to come to a logical conclusion. You are coming from the perspective of one set of truths, and others from another. While you or anyone else may be a valid argument, the level of truth we are discussing is at the moment just too far above the basic level of truth we really need to sort out first. Otherwise we can just ramble on all day and waste our lives when we can't even see eye to eye on the most basic level. If we really were sorting out all our differences and we still had logical, valid arguments, then the truth might come out.

Or we just have to agree to disagree. :judge:

I know you may accuse me in a way totally different from my true spiritual personality and it is not unexpected from somebody like you to conclude that I am a troublemaker or a nuisance since you are a believer of this historical Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, I must tell you about the real Jesus Christ because it is still hidden from you.

I have to inform you because I know He is the one your inner being is truly looking for. Whenever you confess with your lips ‘Jesus is Lord’ your heart is honesty seeking the real one but your mind brings you to another because the true Christ of God is still hidden from you. This is the concern of Apostle Paul in 2 Cor 11:3.

I know it is very hard for anybody to believe and trust me. Although I too wishes to be loved just like anybody else but in reality, it is unavoidable on my part not to be hated by many, especially deeply devoted Christians, once I speak and testify regarding the real Jesus Christ. They will hate me because I am destroying the image of their God which I called historical Jesus Christ.

It is now immaterial how they will treat me since I know very well that everything in me and for me outweigh by the importance in bringing this message to all of you – that even today you can see for yourself the real Jesus Christ in the same way all witnesses saw Him because He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

You said ‘it is impossible for any of us to come to a logical conclusion’. Of course, you will fail to rationally explain - Why did Jesus have to die in order to forgive your sin – because you learned that teaching thru your tradition (i.e. teaching of men ) and accepted it to be true in the absence of any logical or rational explanation but only through faith.

This is the reason why I previously stated that ‘since none of you can prove the reason why your Jesus had to die in order to forgive your sins, it is therefore very obvious that you are not having the same spirit with Apostle Paul who explains it very well through his letters’. Again, Apostle Paul explain it rationally and logically because he knows the relationship of his sin and the death of the real Jesus Christ.

So, if you cannot logically explain the relationship of your sins to the death of Christ then you do not really understand the testimony of Apostle Paul in Romans 7:14-25 and if you failed to explain it - even to yourself - then you are surely failed to see and not looking to the real One. Edited February 15, 2013 by reyb

[TheLordsSouljah]

I know you may accuse me in a way totally different from my true spiritual personality and it is not unexpected from somebody like you to conclude that I am a troublemaker or a nuisance since you are a believer of this historical Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, I must tell you about the real Jesus Christ because it is still hidden from you.

I have to inform you because I know He is the one your inner being is truly looking for. Whenever you confess with your lips ‘Jesus is Lord’ your heart is honesty seeking the real one but your mind brings you to another because the true Christ of God is still hidden from you. This is the concern of Apostle Paul in 2 Cor 11:3.

I know it is very hard for anybody to believe and trust me. Although I too wishes to be loved just like anybody else but in reality, it is unavoidable on my part not to be hated by many, especially deeply devoted Christians, once I speak and testify regarding the real Jesus Christ. They will hate me because I am destroying the image of their God which I called historical Jesus Christ.

It is now immaterial how they will treat me since I know very well that everything in me and for me outweigh by the importance in bringing this message to all of you – that even today you can see for yourself the real Jesus Christ in the same way all witnesses saw Him because He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

You said ‘it is impossible for any of us to come to a logical conclusion’. Of course, you will fail to rationally explain - Why did Jesus have to die in order to forgive your sin – because you learned that teaching thru your tradition (i.e. teaching of men ) and accepted it to be true in the absence of any logical or rational explanation but only through faith.

This is the reason why I previously stated that ‘since none of you can prove the reason why your Jesus had to die in order to forgive your sins, it is therefore very obvious that you are not having the same spirit with Apostle Paul who explains it very well through his letters’. Again, Apostle Paul explain it rationally and logically because he knows the relationship of his sin and the death of the real Jesus Christ.

So, if you cannot logically explain the relationship of your sins to the death of Christ then you do not really understand the testimony of Apostle Paul in Romans 7:14-25 and if you failed to explain it - even to yourself - then you are surely failed to see and not looking to the real One.

Whoah, whoa, whoa, bud, excuse me:

 

1. I think we do believe in the same Jesus, but you are twisting what Jesus believe into something else; and please don't deny it. Go do some more research on what you think we believe rather than trying to argue it out. Check out the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Seriously. They'll say it way better.

 

2. I never said that I believed in the 'historical Jesus' that you are thinking of. Whatever 'historical Jesus' means, I am still not sure, but I know that I believe in the real and true Lord Jesus.

 

3. Umm, I'm pretty sure that I have 'the right' Jesus, and I do acknowledge Him as Lord and Saviour. I am always seeking Him and always finding Him. How can you simply assume that I don't have a personal relationship with Him? As you probably know, to assume makes an a.s.s. out of u and me.

 

4. I never accused you of anything. I'm not blaming you for anything. Chillax. I just said we can't fix this argument. I wasn't even trying to say anything about why Jesus had to die. That was not the point of my post.

 

5. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. But if you think that 'you know everything in you' (or something like that - couldn't understand what you were getting at.... if that is from Scripture please say so... no plagiarising allowed) and you speak as if you have already died and are now some immortal being or something - sorry darl - but it is going to be extremely hard to take anything from you very seriously. The real Jesus never went trumping Himself. No saint ever got into heaven for having a big head. If this is not the case, please let us know in a slightly clearer fashion. Thanks.

 

6. Stop thinking we all hate you. It's not true. We don't hate you. Know that. People are just incredibly annoyed that their utmost efforts of patiently trying to explain their responses to you that they are going nuts. I love you truly because Christ said to. God bless you.

 

8.Anyone who tries to interpret the Sacred Scriptures all by oneself IS UNSCRIPTURAL. Go and do Theology 101. It's like the first thing you learn. 2 Peter 1:20 says: 'At the same time, we must recognise that the interpretation of scriptural prophecy is never a matter for the individual'. Interpret that however you want. That is the reason why Christ leaving us the Church was so vital. Why would the Lord go to so much trouble, sending the Holy Spirit and such, for nothing??

While we have put on Christ, we are certainly still in the process of putting on the mind of Christ fully. Even Protestants acknowledge that while one might be saved in Christ, on is not yet transformed in Christ. That transformation only comes to completion when all is revealed at the Wedding feast of the Lamb. (Lol, then we can step up to Theology of Revelation 102! Yaay!). Please do not act like every thought you think comes from God. I know that very few of mine do. Point.

 

9. And just for future reference, you will never, ever convert someone by telling them they are wrong, and emphasising why they will always be wrong. Darl, it just doesn't work. Even if they are wrong, you show them the truth. Never say they're wrong. That's just childish. Please. 

 

 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE try to look at this logically, and not just at the nitty gritty quotations but at the heart of what I am trying to say. Otherwise you shall have 'lost' yet another soul from your urgently important views and I shall probably not respond logically. Toodles!!!

[KnightofChrist]

[reyb]

Whoah, whoa, whoa, bud, excuse me:

 

1. I think we do believe in the same Jesus, but you are twisting what Jesus believe into something else; and please don't deny it. Go do some more research on what you think we believe rather than trying to argue it out. Check out the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Seriously. They'll say it way better.

 

2. I never said that I believed in the 'historical Jesus' that you are thinking of. Whatever 'historical Jesus' means, I am still not sure, but I know that I believe in the real and true Lord Jesus.

 

3. Umm, I'm pretty sure that I have 'the right' Jesus, and I do acknowledge Him as Lord and Saviour. I am always seeking Him and always finding Him. How can you simply assume that I don't have a personal relationship with Him? As you probably know, to assume makes an a.s.s. out of u and me.

 

4. I never accused you of anything. I'm not blaming you for anything. Chillax. I just said we can't fix this argument. I wasn't even trying to say anything about why Jesus had to die. That was not the point of my post.

 

5. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. But if you think that 'you know everything in you' (or something like that - couldn't understand what you were getting at.... if that is from Scripture please say so... no plagiarising allowed) and you speak as if you have already died and are now some immortal being or something - sorry darl - but it is going to be extremely hard to take anything from you very seriously. The real Jesus never went trumping Himself. No saint ever got into heaven for having a big head. If this is not the case, please let us know in a slightly clearer fashion. Thanks.

 

6. Stop thinking we all hate you. It's not true. We don't hate you. Know that. People are just incredibly annoyed that their utmost efforts of patiently trying to explain their responses to you that they are going nuts. I love you truly because Christ said to. God bless you.

 

8.Anyone who tries to interpret the Sacred Scriptures all by oneself IS UNSCRIPTURAL. Go and do Theology 101. It's like the first thing you learn. 2 Peter 1:20 says: 'At the same time, we must recognise that the interpretation of scriptural prophecy is never a matter for the individual'. Interpret that however you want. That is the reason why Christ leaving us the Church was so vital. Why would the Lord go to so much trouble, sending the Holy Spirit and such, for nothing??

While we have put on Christ, we are certainly still in the process of putting on the mind of Christ fully. Even Protestants acknowledge that while one might be saved in Christ, on is not yet transformed in Christ. That transformation only comes to completion when all is revealed at the Wedding feast of the Lamb. (Lol, then we can step up to Theology of Revelation 102! Yaay!). Please do not act like every thought you think comes from God. I know that very few of mine do. Point.

 

9. And just for future reference, you will never, ever convert someone by telling them they are wrong, and emphasising why they will always be wrong. Darl, it just doesn't work. Even if they are wrong, you show them the truth. Never say they're wrong. That's just childish. Please. 

 

 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE try to look at this logically, and not just at the nitty gritty quotations but at the heart of what I am trying to say. Otherwise you shall have 'lost' yet another soul from your urgently important views and I shall probably not respond logically. Toodles!!!

 

I know you are not yet accusing me of anything in your previous post that is why I said ‘you may accuse me....’. Nevertheless, you are trying to imply something else when you said ‘I just hope the Jesus that you believe in is the one that teaches Matt 5:9.’ 

Now, you are directly accusing me of twisting something as if I am cheating or double dealing with you. Anyway, I will not take it as an insult but a statement in clarifying things so let me explain further what I am saying.

First, I am truly saying that there are two different Jesus Christ. One is your Jesus whom I called historical Jesus Christ and my Lord Jesus whom I called the real One. Of course, you can call it the other way around if you want. You can call your Jesus as the real Jesus Christ and you may call my Jesus whatever you want since you do not know him. But it is just the same, I am truly saying we have different Jesus Christ and they are not one and the same.

Second, as I have said I was once a Catholic and therefore it is not hard for us to understand each other if we will talked about (your) Jesus. I called your Jesus the historical Jesus Christ because of a ‘belief’ by people like Ignatius that this Christ has already come ‘historically’. I want to remind you that ‘none’ among all witnesses and writers of the scripture, even Luke, saw this historical Jesus Christ. Even your early fathers never saw this Jesus. Nonetheless, they (including you) still believe that this historical Jesus is the same Jesus Apostle Paul is proclaiming. That is why I said this historical Jesus and his coming is just a belief and not a reality. Obviously, your early fathers did not see or failed to give too much attention on Apostle Paul’s warning regarding â€˜other’ Jesus in 2 Cor 11:3-4.

Third, I know you believe in you heart that you already found the real Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, I am still asking you to seek the real one because I was once like you who believe seeing Christ by heart through faith but not in reality. Actually, what I am trying to say is something like this. Do you really saw Jesus Christ in the same way all witnessess like Apostle Paul saw Him? And that is the kind of ‘seeing’ I am asking and wanting to hear from you.

Fourth, my previous post is not directly and solely for you. It is a general statement for anyone who may read it. Fifth, I am glad that you too believe that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Therefore, it is not hard for me to ask, why it is not possible to see Jesus the way they saw him?  Sixth, it is very refreshing to hear something like that. Seventh, “     “.

Eight, you read 2 Peter 1:20 wrongly. It is not about ‘individual interpretation’ of a person who read the scripture. The writer is simply saying ‘no prophecy comes from prophets themselves’ because it comes from the Spirit of Christ who guides them in writing this prophecy. (1 Peter 1:11).

Actually, your statement will hold the weak who will try to understand the scripture alone since you are saying that it is ‘unscriptural’ to read and interpret the scripture without the guidance of your elders or priest. If that is true, why then it is written in 1 John 2:26-27 that ‘you do not need anyone to teach you’?

Ninth, I know it. Actually, I am not seeking any convert. I am simply informing you that there is another Jesus different from yours. Again, I want to make it clear. I am not saying there are two Jesus Christ who are both ‘real’. There is one and only one true and real Jesus Christ. The ‘other’ is a counterfeit, a lie and a non-existing Jesus Christ.

Tenth, Seek the real one and you will find him.

 

Edited February 16, 2013 by reyb