Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

[reyb]

Mark,

Maybe you are right that I am a fool (or mentally ill) in hoping to be given a chance without someone going to hell first. So, what is the sense of answering your other questions?

Anyway, if you will visit us again (here in the Philippines) – just give me a note or text me at (63)09178889937 and if you feel you can trust me, I can pick you up at the airport and bring you to your destination/hotel for free. (I am not joking. I live near NAIA 3 airport so it will not be a big thing for me to do it). And if you are really interested about me, just goggle my name – Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino and you will see and know a little about myself.

Something is not really right maybe because I am not a good ‘conversationalist’ or my grammar is not correct or whatever it is - something is really missing. So, while I am thinking about it, I think it is better for me to go to other web forum like ummah.com (an Islamic web forum) to visit them too. I already registered there with the same name – reyb - just last week.

Now, I am smiling a little because I remember when I was talking to an Iranian and said, ‘don’t you know that Prophet Muhammad is a Christian?’. Then, she looked at me with an eyes of a tiger and then, I said again ‘Do you really believe that Prophet Muhammad saw the power and wisdom of God? And then she said, Yes!. That is precisely what I am talking about when I said ‘he is a Christian’ because he saw my Lord Jesus Christ, who is the power and wisdom of God and now he is giving testimony about my Lord. Of course, I do not expect her to understand me either just like you.

Thus, it is written ‘Lord, who will believe us?’

Edited October 29, 2012 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1351512402' post='2499581']
Mark,

Maybe you are right that I am a fool (or mentally ill) in hoping to be given a chance without someone going to hell first.
[/quote]
Did I call you a fool? I hope not because for me to talk to fools would make me one would it not. As for the mentally ill, I'm now retired on a disability pension due to mental illness. And so I look upon the mentally ill and for that matter all people with a disability as my brothers and sisters and offer our suffering to sharing in the crucifixion of our Lord. You have to admit though that it is pretty strange to come here with all these odd unheard of theories and expect people to not dismiss you as a crank.
And no fear of hell! I'm sure you will get to heaven because you are a good man. All good comes from God and as Barb said all good returns to God.


[quote]So, what is the sense of answering your other questions?[/quote]
As I said I'm a curious person that's why I'm not content to just love God. I want to know him better that I may serve him better. Mostly I want to defeat the devil in me so that I will be more pleasing to him even though I know he loves me inspite of my defects. That's why I question every inconsistency in the Catholic teaching until I find a satisfactory answer and that is happening for me. And sorry your answers don't help.

[quote]Anyway, if you will visit us again (here in the Philippines) – just give me a note or text me at (63)09178889937 and if you feel you can trust me, I can pick you up at the airport and bring you to your destination/hotel for free. (I am not joking. I live near NAIA 3 airport so it will not be a big thing for me to do it). And if you are really interested about me, just goggle my name – Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino and you will see and know a little about myself.[/quote]
I have no doubt that, that is a genuine offer. It's only been a few weeks since I was there. We went to my nephews wedding. Even though they earn very little they cannot do enough for you. Filipinos are lovely, gentle, humble and very spiritual people. In some ways I feel home sick for there. My own country has great wealth and prosperity, but people are poor in spirit, lacking faith and falling to drugs, alcohol and anti social behavior. I have work to do here in my very humble way.

[quote]Something is not really right maybe because I am not a good ‘conversationalist’ or my grammar is not correct or whatever it is - something is really missing. So, while I am thinking about it, I think it is better for me to go to other web forum like ummah.com (an Islamic web forum) to visit them too. I already registered there with the same name – reyb - just last week.[/quote]
I've been to Islamic forums too. When the aggressive ones tried to engage me in debate I explained that as a non Muslim I thought it would be impolite to the forum owners to engage in controversy by arguments and in any event I am not an educated person. I told them I only wished to know them better and ask questions because my God had told me that I must love my neighbour. I had a great time with the gentle good ones they have some really beautiful traditions. I hope you will consider that and not offend them with a distorted view of Christianity.

[quote]Now, I am smiling a little because I remember when I was talking to an Iranian and said, ‘don’t you know that Prophet Muhammad is a Christian?’. Then, she looked at me with an eyes of a tiger and then, I said again ‘Do you really believe that Prophet Muhammad saw the power and wisdom of God? And then she said, Yes!. That is precisely what I am talking about when I said ‘he is a Christian’ because he saw my Lord Jesus Christ, who is the power and wisdom of God and now he is giving testimony about my Lord. Of course, I do not expect her to understand me either just like you.[/quote]
That is true, but unfortunately because the teachings of Christ could not suit the customs and rather barbaric times of his culture and his own desires he wasn't able to accept the suffering and death accepted by our Lord. He decided to take the easy way and change doctrine by denying the teachings of the man incarnate and fell into error. Just as you are doing! I don't believe that Catholicism is 100% correct in all of it's interpretations. There are many contradictions which have not been adequately explained but this is a fallen world! It's not that long since Catholics believed that if you eat meet on Friday you will go to hell. Perfection cannot be found here since Jesus left. He is the only perfection in the world since Adam did whatever it was that he did that made the world fallen. However as the apostles said to Jesus who will I turn to who has the keys to eternal life. And so I remain forever Catholic.

[quote]Thus, it is written ‘Lord, who will believe us?’[/quote]
Yes it is unfortunate that we can't convince you that through the faith and works of the Catholic Church which is the greatest on earth that this is as close to God as you can get this side of death.

The question has been asked. Why do I respond to you so much? Good question!
1/ I learn from other people.
2/ I learn from myself! Now there's a good one for a mentally ill person. Occasionally I write something good which helps someone. Barb said I did that 174 pages ago! And I was so pleased by her encouragement that I added her to my friends list. Jesus said "Why do you call me good? Only God is good!" Actually he was testing if they believed who he really was. Which is where you seem to be going wrong. But we also see that all that is good comes from God. So I guess occasionally I write something that is inspired by God and hence comes from him.
3/ Deep down inside since I think you are such a good person and my neighbour whom I love I am committed to directing you, even though I have long since realised that I cannot change you. Because you are what you are.
Peace Bro.

[BarbTherese]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4][b][u][color=#000000]Quoting Mark of The Cross[/color][/u][/b]

[b][color=#000000]5/ Barb seems to think you are 1 of a group. I don't because you are predictably consistent. Which are you? Do you have a following and a church of your own? Maybe one of them grand white ones that really stand out amongst the poor housing areas! Are you a Borg? 1 of 7? or was that 7 of 9?[/color][/b]


[color=#000000]Hi Mark – what I meant by “one of a group” is that he belongs to a group of people that have the same beliefs. I am presuming only that possibly reby’s is one of this group of common belief, bonding them. At times his concepts are consistent. Also at times he uses “we”. These factors have led me to conclude that in possibility he might be part of some group of common belief bonding them. As Catholics can be termedart of a group of common belief which is their common bond.[/color]

[color=#000000]Also, I am familiar with some of reby’s concepts anyway and to which group of common bond he may likely belong.[/color]


[b][color=#000000]Speaking for myself not Barb (she's new to Reys threads) us crazy peoples is fascinated by crazy people.[/color][/b]

[color=#000000]I am relatively new to commenting on his posts, but not new to reading his posts.[/color]

[color=#000000]Personally, for myself, not speaking about or for anyone else but myself, I think time and effort is wasted with responding to reyb’s posts. It reminds me of two groups of people on either side of a wide wall. Now and then one or more of each group will go to the top of the wall and disagree repetitively for a while, sometimes a long while – and about which side of the wall is the right side of the wall and why. Neither side has any intention whatsoever of going to the other side of the wall and no matter the case put for the other side of the wall. In other words, I think for myself that this thread is completely at a stalemate. It is at an impasse. [color=#000000]The only way to my mind to resolve an impasse is to walk right through it and dissolve the impasse. No one who has contributed to this thread, including reby's, to my mind has any intention of doing this. And in the case of those disagreeing with reby, rightly so to my mind and for one only due to the weakness (for various reasons) of what reyb has presented as his concepts in this thread.[/color][/color]

[color=#000000]IMPASSE [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impasse"][color=#0000FF]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impasse[/color][/url]

[color=#000000]STALEMATE [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalemate"][color=#0000FF]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalemate[/color][/url]

[color=#000000]If I were an observer of the debate and/or a reader of this thread, I have decided that I would consider that reby’s concepts are weak and have lost the debate, and lost by a very large margin – his arguments are much weaker. Hence I have concluded, no use contributing to this thread as it is at stalemate and impasse – and any reader reading the thread, would conclude that reby’s position was weak and questionable due to the opposing concepts as being far stronger than those of reby’s, more believable.[/color][/size][/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4][color=#000000]All the above, I have concluded for myself as my own position re this thread. Of course, this is just at this point and I am very conscious always that a decision re a situation can change due to certain variables intervening in the situation/person - and these obviously change the situation itself and my conclusions re a situation at a prior point. It's what I call "never put a full stop, end or story, after any situation or person - unless absolutely necessary". For me then, at this point, it is full stop only.[/color][/size][/font]

Edited October 30, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[To Jesus Through Mary]

[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LeNBgmW-WQk/TxZdGvPNZuI/AAAAAAAAAjQ/o7cWGQOy30c/s1600/11_06_14---Merry-go-round--The-Hoppings--Newcastle-upon-Tyne_web.jpg[/img]

[Mark of the Cross]

[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KExp0LqzqZA/TuSgotvn1LI/AAAAAAAACBE/s5hXwybrOiM/s320/round+and+round.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.openmoney.org/pics/1c.png[/img]

[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_S1bdNBvOURk/S_81n5gjCjI/AAAAAAAAJh0/fMsdDlLP6DM/s1600/round+and+round.jpg[/img]

[BarbTherese]

............. ..................

This thread (and some others) can remind me of what Jesus said "We have piped to you, and you have not danced". And also something much harsher that He said as instructions to us - I am not going to repeat it here as it is indeed very harsh indeed - oh indeedy, it is very very harsh.
In my previous post this appears "[color=#000000]As Catholics can be termedart of a group of common belief which is their common bond.[/color]" It should read "can be termed as part of a group". I had a visitor call just as I was posting and my Edit facility has timed out - i.e. I can't edit my previous post.

Edited October 30, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

[b][u]Quoting Mark of The Cross[/u]: And no fear of hell! I'm sure you will get to heaven because you are a good man. "All good comes from God and as Barb said all good returns to God."[/b]

Hi again Mark - I just wanted to comment on the above. What I usually say and hope that I did say is "All good comes from God and IDEALLY returns to Him. Between the gifts of God in all creation is man's free will to either direct that good back to its origin and to God, or to misuses it. FREE WILL. All that is good in any way whatsoever comes from God. All good has its origin in God. We can be assured of this beyond doubt and be it some small or great physical, spiritual, mental, emotional or material good; however, God's Goodness in His Gifts to us can be misused and hence, while the good for sure has come from and had its origina in God, it is not returned to Him. We have free will and can either use God's Gifts for good and return His gifts to Him, or they can certainly be misused and sometimes misused to an extreme degree.

Just one example as an example that I can think of, is that a person has been gifted with say great intelligence and uses that intelligence for crime. God's Gift is not returned to Him, but used through free will for evil purposes.

Apocalypse Ch 1 " [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=1&l=8#x"][8][/url] [u]I am Alpha and Omega[/u], the beginning and the end, saith the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty. "

God's many gifts to us are given to us in order to return those gifts to Him and the rightful owner, who is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, of all that is good. If I misuse God's gift to me for something that is not good, I am not using it for that purpose God has IDEALLY gifted it for and this is to use it for good, which is to direct one's gift or gifts back to The Lord to whom it rightly belongs in the first place. Many of the parables of Jesus speak to this point.
I either use the gift I am given for good returning it to its rightful owner, since all good is for stewardship. Or I rob The Lord of what is His in the first place and misuse my gift from Him and am not a good steward of what I have been given. I am a thief and a robber.

All that is created thus is good and created for good including human beings and if a person lives a good life, then that person will return to God according to our Catholic theology. (this can beg a philosophical question - i.e. "What is GOOD and what is GOODNESS?" and another subject entirely, although our theology consistently strives to answer it on various matters - and these strivings are reported to our Magisterium who then makes declarations for all Catholics on various matters. We are seeing this at the moment in what the USCCB is stating about forming one's conscience in connection with the US elections - I posted this statement "Forming Conscience" (or similar title for my thread) and the statement on the subject from the USCCB into Transmundane Forum I think it was.)
Having the vote, is a gift of God. Rightly forming conscience in connection to one's actual vote is striving to return the gift of the vote to God and the rightful owner. I am using God's Gift of a vote in a democratic society in good stewardship, striving that my vote will be used for good guided by a rightfully formed conscience - and as one hopes one's conscience always is in all matters. And if in doubt, research the matter - and also speak with a priest and/or spiritual director.

Edited October 30, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[Mark of the Cross]

To Barb
Not sure what the disagreement is here. You seem to be saying what I said.
[quote]and if a person[b] lives a good life[/b], then that person will return to God according to our Catholic theology.[/quote]


Intelligence is a gift from God. How it is used by us determines if it is good or bad.
[quote]
If I misuse [b]God's gift[/b] to me for something that is[b] not good,[/b]

[/quote]

Being judgmental here for a moment.
I believe Rey is a good person who believes he is doing Gods work and therefore is acting by his free will to choose what he thinks is good, even though his theology is flawed. His concern is for [b]other people not himself[/b] which puts him ahead of the many unfortunates whom act only for their own salvation.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Nihil Obstat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk9ZWJEuL_4

[reyb]

BarbaraTherese,

Why up to now you do not get the idea that this kind of question demands logical and rational answers rather than ‘theological explanation’ founded on your faith and belief?

If you did not notice, all your explanations to the question why did Jesus have to die, are ‘theological reasoning’ rather than logical explanation acceptable to ordinary rational man. Thus, I do not accept your reasoning since you cannot even prove to yourself the relationship of Jesus death more or less 2000 years ago and your sins, except that you ‘believe’ by his death your sins are forgiven.

To make it short, your explanation is not rational reasoning but reasons in the eyes of Catholic faith. It only mean, your faith is your reason and nothing more than that.

For example, you (BarbaraTherese) concluded that the sufferings of Jesus tell us that God can intervene in human life and to trust in God. But our idea of God as Almighty and owner of everything and we as his simple creation, is enough reason to say, God can intervene in our human life even without this ‘God becoming man’ stuff. If you are truly a believer of God like Islam or Buddhist or whatever religion, trust in God is a must. So, why this ‘God die on the cross’ necessary if that is the purpose of it?

I did not previously elaborate this issue since you already admitted that Christ’s death is a mystery and therefore, it is an admission of ‘not knowing’ the true reason why did Jesus have to die although I question the idea of ‘Goodness that comes from evil’. Again, I leave it that way for a moment because I want our discussion to remain in our subject topic.

Again you (BarbaraTherese) proved the authenticity of historical Jesus using testimonium flavianum (please see [url="http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/testimonium.html"]http://www.earlychri...estimonium.html[/url] ). But you (BarbaraTherese) ignore that this part of Josephus writing was found (by some scholars) to be spurious.

Let us solve this by showing me any record or proof of anything about ‘resurrected saints’ who roamed in the streets of Jerusalem. If the death of Jesus is a historical event then, these ‘zombies’ too must also be a historical event. Now, if Josephus truly wrote about this historical Jesus, Do you really think it is possible for him to miss or not to include in his letter about this ‘resurrection of saints’? (please see Matthew 27:52-53).

Now you are telling me....

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1351553935' post='2500034']

If I were an observer of the debate and/or a reader of this thread, I have decided that I would consider that reby’s concepts are weak and have lost the debate, and lost by a very large margin – his arguments are much weaker. Hence I have concluded, no use contributing to this thread as it is at stalemate and impasse – and any reader reading the thread, would conclude that reby’s position was weak and questionable due to the opposing concepts as being far stronger than those of reby’s, more believable.

All the above, I have concluded for myself as my own position re this thread. Of course, this is just at this point and I am very conscious always that a decision re a situation can change due to certain variables intervening in the situation/person - and these obviously change the situation itself and my conclusions re a situation at a prior point. It's what I call "never put a full stop, end or story, after any situation or person - unless absolutely necessary". For me then, at this point, it is full stop only.
[/quote]


May I know what is that 'weak concept' I presented?

Edited October 30, 2012 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

Out of curiosity I googled his name and it brought me back here!

Please someone close this thread!

[Nihil Obstat]

I am half thinking I should pony-spam this thread until it gets locked.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1351561705' post='2500110']
To Barb
Not sure what the disagreement is here. You seem to be saying what I said.



Intelligence is a gift from God. How it is used by us determines if it is good or bad.


Being judgmental here for a moment.
I believe Rey is a good person who believes he is doing Gods work and therefore is acting by his free will to choose what he thinks is good, even though his theology is flawed. His concern is for [b]other people not himself[/b] which puts him ahead of the many unfortunates whom act only for their own salvation.
[/quote]
Agree on all points, Mark
I guess I just wanted to underscore that ALL that is good comes to us from God and has its' origin in Him and that it is our free will at times that has the choice of whether to return God's gifts to Him, or not. It is our stewardship of His gifts to us, and that it is stewardship to which we are called. Quite a few of the parables of Jesus do use the steward as a central figure. I did want to comment on the "Alpha and Omega" factor as it were rather than dispute anything.

Probably the best way to close this thread I suspect and short of moderator intervention closing it, or send it to the backbenches where 'dead' threads of a natural death do go, is simply not to contribute. Mea maxima culpa! I notice too that there is a "Report" facility on all posts, although I suspect that this forum does not have any rules other than the unwritten - i.e The Gospel which includes stewardship of 'computer and keyboard'.

Edited October 30, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1351574320' post='2500193']
Out of curiosity I googled his name and it brought me back here!

Please someone close this thread!
[/quote]

My goodness Mark, I have a Facebook account - that is my point.

Okay. I will stop from here since obviously none in Phatmass can 'prove' using logical and rational explanation (rather than 'theological reasoning') why did Jesus have to die.

Edited October 30, 2012 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1351584778' post='2500237']
My goodness Mark, I have a Facebook account - that is my point.

Okay. I will stop from here since obviously none in Phatmass can 'prove' using logical and rational explanation (rather than 'theological reasoning') why did Jesus have to die.
[/quote]
I don't have a facebook account. Phatmass does enough damage to my brain.