Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

[stevil]

Hey Nihil, thanks for posting this Catchism.

Please don’t take me for a troll or as a person that wants to argue for arguments sake.
I like you and your approach, the way you present yourself on this forum, so don’t intentionally want to make enemies of you.

I am not looking for faith myself, I don’t believe that there is anything supernatural or magical about existence, I suppose you would thus peg me as a materialist.

However I also don’t want to simply be a person whom holds the usual strawman arguments against religion and in specific the messages of the bible. As Mark has pointed out, it is difficult for a non believer to see anything other than literal context from the words of the bible, especially the OT with its seemingly grotesque messages of death, stonings and god’s vengeance upon humankind.
The NT, I am told is not this way. But one of the most significant events for Christians being the death and resurrection of JC as a sacrifice does baffle me and does seem grotesque to me. So I am trying to keep an open mind and listen to what Christians have to say about this rather than hold onto my otherwise strawman “literal” perceptions.

Anyway, I have read what you posted. This catechism.
I don’t feel it answered any of my questions though.
It makes assertions as to this event being a great sacrifice. But it doesn’t go to explain what god/Jesus has lost (sacrificed) due to this event or why death of Jesus is payment for other people’s sin, or even why sin is undesirable and how actions come to be defined as sinful or not.

“as a mystery of universal redemption”
This makes me think that even the Catholic church does not know the answers to my obvious questions, that it is simple to be taken “as is” and accepted by the faithful, on faith. Of course, not being a person of faith, I am lost on this. I can’t accept it on faith, thus I can’t understand it. So maybe I never will. That’s fine, if that is what it is. I just have to accept that this is what other’s think and stop trying to dig further in an attempt to understand myself.

"Man's sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death”
Why are sins punishable by death? Who decided what the punishment should be? Who decided what is sinful?
I know Catholics believe in evolution and that life was on Earth for a very, very long time before humans evolved. Thus death was a consequence of life long before the original sin event. To me death is merely an unavoidable consequence of life, I don’t have to explain it away as being a consequence of sin. Even after Jesus’ sacrifice, people still die. Death is still inevitable. I know you believe in life after death, some kind of ethereal existence in heaven or hell. So is it a belief that heaven and hell didn’t exist until Jesus sacrifice? Why couldn’t god have gone down the heaven and hell path without making a blood sacrifice first? Is this just a mystery?

“he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God "did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all", so that we might be "reconciled to God by the death of his Son"

I don’t understand this. I don’t understand how the death of god’s son achieves anything. How does it reconcile humans with god? I know I am guilty of anthropomorphism here, I am trying to understand why an all powerful god would only consider humans as being reconciled when some blood is spilt. Obviously I can’t put myself in these shoes, I would never demand someone’s death as payment for any sins. Is this just a mystery?

Anyway, I don’t want to pick apart the whole thing, that is a waste of everyone’s time.
Just wanting to express my thoughts that the catechism only offers assertions but no real answers other than “it is a mystery”

With scientific stories they only describe observations and models that seem to accurately describe those observations.
With religion they seem to go as far as they can with logic and consistency based on assertions (rather than observations).
For me, a person without faith, I guess I am much more likely to accept the mysteries of the universe as being I don’t know how existence began, I don’t know how life began.
Rather than the mysteries offered in this catechism or religion in general.
I can’t be sceptical of consistent observations, but I can be sceptical of assertions.

Anyway, back to the point of the sacrifice of JC, if I were an all powerful god, I would not require blood to be spilt and I would not allow one to delegate responsibility for one’s own actions. So I don’t understand it.

[Nihil Obstat]

Unfortunately I have a big midterm tomorrow, so I do not feel that I can take the time to do up the reply that this post deserves.
Luckily, I was talking about a similar subject a couple weeks ago, and the stuff I can cut and paste from that is going to at least be close-ish to what you are looking for.

Here you go:

I try to look at it from the perspective of the Incarnation as an historical event that caused a change in the nature of all Creation.
In Genesis Adam, the first man, effective closed off heaven to mankind because he in his arrogance destroyed mankind's relationship with God. Like he was clinging to God by a rope, and then went and cut it.
So it's not a personal guilt that is transferred through original sin, but a collective guilt because we all share in the effects of that first betrayal.
Since the first born of Men is the one who broke that relationship, it took the new firstborn of Men to repair it, not just God's creation, but also God Himself. I think that refers to the concept that ultimately it is God who approaches us, and we merely respond. Adam caused that rift, and so we are unable on our own power to approach God, even just to beg for mercy. But that could be done by Christ, because he was fully God (God approaching us) and fully Man (Man's response to God). The Incarnation then is both the call and the response. And since It is the perfect response, by the power of the Incarnation (and sacrifice) that link between God and Man can now be mended.
Creation became disordered by Man's rebellion, but in Christ's perfect dual nature, Creation is ordered perfectly again. So by accepting the Grace He offers us, our own disordered nature can also be re-ordered.

I take it to be referring to the Incarnation and the reality of God reaching out to us, broken as we are. Here are these sinful, rather disgusting creatures that are nonetheless deeply loved by God, so He sends Himself to them, fully God, and He sends Himself as one of them, fully human. That perfect union of Man and Divine allowed the relationship between them to be repaired, because here finally was the perfect Man, the Man who had full 'access' to God. So we all share in Christ's human nature simply by being human. Made in God's image. That part of us was always there. And when you think about it, it's pretty radical, to be made in God's image. Even when we rejected Him, we remained a reflection of His glory. If somewhat obscured.
So Christ, in the union of those natures, takes the Man made in God's image, and unites it to the Divine, Who can heal and forgive. In uniting those two natures, and by offering Himself to us in the Eucharist, He gives us the means by which we too can unite the Divine to ourselves.
I think that is how I understand divinization/theosis... the idea that Christ, by the Incarnation, united Man and God, so by taking His Flesh and Blood, we are consumed by Him and therefore can share in His Divinity.

[BarbTherese]

I wanted to give the previous post by Nihil Obstat [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/124301-why-did-jesus-have-to-die/page__st__160#entry2498060"]HERE[/url] props, but the facility seems to have vanished in all forums insofar as I could see anyway. Also, I checked my Profile and it seems the sum total of props display thing has also vanished.
May all go well in your mid term.
Congratulations on your engagement, NH. I just noticed it on your profile pic. May your journey with Moosey be filled with many blessings and rewards, happy surprises, and much Peace and Joy!

Edited October 27, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[Nihil Obstat]

Thank you very much.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1351184629' post='2497565']
Since you are telling me that it is easy to see – this great love of giving yourself for your friends in the same way Christ gave his life for you. Can you now please explain to me in what way Jesus’ death on the cross saves you from impending wrath of God?
[/quote]


I still experienced the wrath of GOD, because i'm open to it. I don't assume GODS mercy.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1351241035' post='2497876']
So, you are now telling me 'believe what we believe and you will become one with us'. But, what is the sense of that kind of oneness if everything is based on belief without proper reasoning? True witnesses will never teach that kind of stupid teaching because it will create divisions and factions among believers who thinks differently from one another.
[/quote]

Sad for those when the words of JESUS become a stumbling block. The bible says something like that to. It was like that from the beggining when the boy jesus was presented at the temple and the prophet said that he will be the rising and falling of many.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[BarbTherese]

Not directed at anyone in particular.
When a statement is made either spoken or written, very often it is the way it is spoken or written (adjectives and nouns, verbs, phrases etc. used) that can state something quite contrary to what is being spoken or written. For example, if I claim Jesus and The Gospel, Christianity, and then use derogatory type language with the intention of being offending, then my claim is challenged by my use of language. Mea culpa! The Gospel is for all times and in all places, nothing exempted.

[quote]Matthew Ch 5 [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=5&l=22#x"][22][/url] But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, [b][u]Raca[/u][/b], shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, [u]Thou Fool[/u], shall be in danger of hell fire. [[url="http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=5&l=22#x"]Matthew 5:22[/url]] [[url="http://drbo.org/x/d?b=lvb&bk=47&ch=5&l=22#x"]Latin[/url]] [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=5&l=23#x"][23][/url] If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee; [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=5&l=24#x"][24][/url] Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=5&l=25#x"][25][/url] Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. [/quote]

[quote][22] [b][u]Raca[/u]: [/b]A word expressing great indignation or contempt. Shall be in danger of the council ... That is, shall deserve to be punished by the highest court of judicature, called the Council, or Sanhedrim, consisting of seventy-two persons, where the highest causes were tried and judged, which was at Jerusalem. [/quote]
The whole of Matthew Ch5 is worth the read [url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47005.htm"]HERE[/url]

But then Shakespeare wrote ("Merchant of Venice" quoted below)that even the devil can quote Scripture to its own purposes and we have examples of that thing doing this in Scripture in both the Old and New Testaments. Satan will interpret Scripture to serve its own miserable purposes. And what it did in Scipture is literally interpret. Any statement whatsoever almost taken out of its actual context can be totally misinterpreted. The actual context of any quotation from Scipture, is the entire Bible, Old and New Testaments. This is why The Church is very serious and very knowledgeable in areas that are concerned with interpreting Scritpure.


"The devil can site scripture for his own purpose! An evil soul producing holy witness is like a villain with a smiling cheek." [Shakespeare, "Merchant Of Venice"]

Dots not connected!

Is reby stating that the Jesus of the Gospels in the New Testament is different from the Jesus of St Paul? I confess I find his posts absolutely confusing and the more I have read of his posts, the more confused I can get as to what he is trying to state. And at times it is not at all hard to confuse me!
And self praise is never any sort of valid recommendation........once again, dots not connected.

Edited October 27, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1351302465' post='2498289']
Thank you very much.
[/quote]


..................

[BarbTherese]

An example from WWII of evil quoting Scripture for its own evil purposes
[url="http://archive.catholicherald.co.uk/article/27th-december-1940/5/the-devil-quotes-scripture"]http://archive.catho...uotes-scripture[/url]


Here, the quotation used by the Gestapo is taken completely out of context of the whole of Scripture - and literally interpreted for their own purposes.

[reyb]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1351304527' post='2498315']
Sad for those when the words of JESUS become a stumbling block. The bible says something like that to. It was like that from the beggining when the boy jesus was presented at the temple and the prophet said that he will be the rising and falling of many.
[/quote]
[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1351308864' post='2498344']
Is reby stating that the Jesus of the Gospels in the New Testament is different from the Jesus of St Paul? I confess I find his posts absolutely confusing and the more I have read of his posts, the more confused I can get as to what he is trying to state. And at times it is not at all hard to confuse me!
And self praise is never any sort of valid recommendation........once again, dots not connected.
[/quote]


Let me summarize what I am trying to say.

I was once a Catholic and therefore it is not hard for me to understand my previous belief from where, the historical realization of coming of Christ - which is the ‘fulfilment of prophecy’ - is the very foundation of all teachings and doctrines of Catholics and Protestants for more than 2000 years and thus, this ‘salvation history’ was announced by all of them as if this ‘coming’ is no longer a kind of belief but rather a historical reality or historical event in our world of physical realities.

This ‘salvation history’, (previously narrated by Nihil) started from the very beginning when God created everything up to the coming of Christ and then with a continuation of a promise that he will come back again to judge the living and the dead, is the entire summation of Catholic belief and thus (please see Dei Verbum in [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html"]http://www.vatican.v...-verbum_en.html[/url]) Catholics are saying

‘The Christian dispensation, therefore, as the new and definitive covenant, will never pass away and we now await no further new public revelation before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ (see 1 Tim. 6:14 and Tit. 2:13)’.

So, if anyone who will believe and accept this ‘salvation history’ (including ‘Jesus as Lord and saviour’ and every ‘growth and development’ out of this ‘revelation’) you are already a Catholic and sharer of whatever promises made out of this belief.

I want to make it clear to everyone that I understand these ‘important’ Catholic teachings or doctrines or whatever belief which I now openly stated, none of them is true since this ‘historical realization of the coming of Jesus Christ’ is a lie or there is no historical Jesus at all.

Now, If you want to hear my piece then, I am very much willing to tell you why.

Edited October 27, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

To all Catholics (especially priest and bishops),

You are all truly sons of your Apostolic fathers like Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna who taught their followers to close their ears and not to listen to anyone who sees Jesus differently. Your silence is obviously an act of ‘cowardice’ to face the truth (and may I remind you whatever is written in Revelation 21:8).

Ignatius said (please see [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm"]http://www.newadvent...athers/0109.htm[/url])

‘For I [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm"]know[/url] that after His [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12789a.htm"]resurrection[/url] also He was still possessed of flesh, and I [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm"]believe[/url] that He is so now. When, for instance, He came to those who were with [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11744a.htm"]Peter[/url], He said to them, Lay hold, handle Me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit. And immediately they touched Him, and [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm"]believed[/url], being convinced both by His flesh and [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14220b.htm"]spirit[/url]. For this [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]cause[/url] also they despised death, and were found its conquerors. And after hisresurrection He ate and drank with them, as being possessed of flesh, although spiritually He was united to the Father.


[b]Chapter 4. Beware of these heretics[/b]

I give you these instructions, beloved, assured that you also hold the same opinions [as I do]. But I guard you beforehand from those beasts in the shape of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm"]men[/url], whom you must not only not receive, but, if it be possible, not even meet with; only you must [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm"]pray[/url] to God for them, if by any means they may be brought to repentance, which, however, will be very difficult. Yet [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"]Jesus Christ[/url], who is our [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm"]true[/url] life, has the power of [effecting] this. But if these things were done by our Lord only in appearance, then am I also only in appearance bound. And why have I also surrendered myself to death, to fire, to the sword, to the wild beasts? But, [in fact,] he who is near to the sword is near to [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url]; he that is among the wild beasts is in company with [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url]; provided only he be so in the name of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"]Jesus Christ[/url]. I undergo all these things that I may suffer together with Him, [url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/rom008.htm#verse17"]Romans 8:17[/url] He who became a perfect man inwardly strengthening me. [url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/phi004.htm#verse13"]Philippians 4:13[/url]


[b]Chapter 5. Their dangerous errors[/b]

Some [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm"]ignorantly[/url] deny Him, or rather have been denied by Him, being the advocates of death rather than of the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm"]truth[/url]. These [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm"]persons[/url] neither have the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12477a.htm"]prophets[/url] persuaded, nor the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10582c.htm"]law of Moses[/url], nor the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm"]Gospel[/url] even to this day, nor the sufferings we have individually endured. For they think also the same thing regarding us. For what does any one profit me, if he commends me, but blasphemes my Lord, not confessing that He was [[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm"]truly[/url]] possessed of a body? But he who does not acknowledge this, has in fact altogether denied Him, being enveloped in death. I have not, however, thought good to write the names of such [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm"]persons[/url], inasmuch as they are unbelievers. Yea, far be it from me to make any mention of them, until they repent and return to [a [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm"]true[/url]belief in] Christ's passion, which is our resurrection.
--------------
So, if you do not want to hear the other side of my story. What can I do? We are now in 21th century but still the darkness of 1[sup]st[/sup] century is still hovering over the ages as it is written in 2 Tim 3:1-9

[indent=1]But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.[/indent]

[indent=1]They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth — men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.[/indent]

As you can see, you cannot even show ‘How this death of historical Jesus exonerates you from the wrath of God’. (except of course you just believe in it and nothing more). While, it is very clear in Apostle Paul’s letter ‘Why did Jesus have to die in order to save a ‘man in Christ’. (and he is not referring to your historical Jesus because none of them (true witnessess) including the writer of Luke become 'eyewitnessess' of your historical Jesus).

Okay. I will leave it that way.

Edited October 28, 2012 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

Rey a curious thought crossed my mind. Do you only haunt Catholic forums or do you go to other denominations? How about other religions? Do you go to Muslim forums and tell them there is no historical prophet? How about Buddhists with a thread entitled 'there is no historical Buddha!' I'm curious about what makes you tick! Which of the following best describes you.

1. You're a Troll who enjoys annoying people and seeing how long you can lead them on.
2. You're mentally ill and you really believe that you are leading people to a greater truth.
3. You haven't got a clue about what you are talking about and don't really care. The fact that people take you seriously (at least until they wake up to you) and argue with you, gives you enjoyment. In other words you're lonely and an attention seeker.

Personally I reckon number 3 from what I've seen of your posts. When someone answers you with a serious post you really come alive. I don't think you're dumb because when I've set up little traps that you can't get out of, you become evasive by being completely vague and incoherent or change the subject or ignore the question. Ignoring peoples questions which may trap you is your favorite escape. I don't think I've seen anyone show you how illogical you are but occasionally you have thanked someone for their information. What does that actually mean?
1/ They convinced you of an error to which you are accepting correction.
2/ You can't think of anything to respond with at the time.
3/ You can't be bothered or are not interested enough?
4/ You're cunning and know they are losing interest. So it's a decoy to make them think that they are winning?

Why not tell us more about yourself so we can know better how to treat you. So far you seem pretty nice and harmless because no one is likely to takes you seriously for more than 500 circular arguments. And you are always polite which is strange. Are you human?
1/ Where in the Philippines do you come from?
2/ Are you married?
3/ Do you have children?
4/ Do you have friends?
5/ Barb seems to think you are 1 of a group. I don't because you are predictably consistent. Which are you? Do you have a following and a church of your own? Maybe one of them grand white ones that really stand out amongst the poor housing areas! Are you a Borg? 1 of 7? or was that 7 of 9?
6/ Are you a Muslim or a Jew? I ask this because you don't seem to want to believe in historical Jesus and neither do they.
7/ Why don't you become a Jew or a Muslim and leave us alone?
8/ Do you really think that some Catholics may say that you have convinced them and they are now going to follow and be guided by you. No wait! that would mean you are raving mad and I don't think you are.
9/ What do you hope to achieve here?

Edited October 28, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[To Jesus Through Mary]

Mark tbh I can't believe you and Barb have engaged him for this long. (And I vote #1 with Barb )

[reyb]

Mark and all phatmassers,

I already confessed many times my purpose in coming here in phatmass nonetheless I will say it again.

I come here because I know you truly love God and his Christ with all your heart, mind and soul. Again, I know it and I do not doubt your sincerity about it. But unfortunately and unknowingly, you are looking and giving your love, faith, best and hope to this ‘other ‘Jesus Christ and not to the real One. This is the reason why we have a discussion like this – I am proving to you that your historical Jesus Christ is a non-existent one while I am hoping too that you will seek the real one once you see my arguments.

Thus, I previously said,

[quote] If you previously read me thru all my threads, posts and arguments in this forum, you will clearly notice I am insisting that there is another Jesus different from your historical Jesus. My purpose in showing the untruthfulness or lack of authenticity of your historical Jesus - which is usually tainted with all kinds of useless suspicions - is not to insult or degrade anyone’s pride much more to lose faith in God and in his Christ but to inform you – which is the very least I can possibly do - that there is another Jesus in whom your inner being truly longing for as a believer. [/quote]

But up to now, you did not give me a chance to do it for you- to explain to you that this historical Jesus Christ is just a ‘belief’ of your Apostolic fathers and not the real Jesus Christ all witnesses is saying.

Edited October 29, 2012 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='To Jesus Through Mary' timestamp='1351478846' post='2499449']
Mark tbh I can't believe you and Barb have engaged him for this long. (And I vote #1 with Barb )
[/quote]
Speaking for myself not Barb (she's new to Reys threads) us crazy peoples is fascinated by crazy people. Besides TV is so boring even responding to Rey 75638474893 times is more constructive. I suppose I could go outside and see how much the grass grows in the dark. That could be less frustrating too!
But It looks like we're both wrong. Seems as though it's number 2. Although I suppose he could be making that up and it is number 1. I'm confused.

Okay Rey sorry for not being patient and not giving you a chance to explain it to me. Maybe we could go through it again some time, but that will only probably happen if I go to hell. For the first set of questions we've established option 2 or it may be that you're faking 2 to continue 1. but 3 seems out voted. Does that make sense. Prolly doesn't but it makes more sense than your posts.

Please answer the other questions.