Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

[stevil]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1351190317' post='2497603']
I am not quite sure what you are asking here.
[/quote]
What was it that he sacrificed?
If I die, I cannot come back, If I throw myself in the path of a bullet intended for someone else, then I die, they might live, thus it would have been a sacrifice.
If I could choose to come back to life, then remaining dead would be a choice, I would not have sacrificed my life, because I could simply choose to live once again.

Maybe I am missing the point of Jesus' sacrifice, maybe I am incapable of understanding it. I just don't know how it can been seen as a sacrifice. If he was human then he was forced to die, if he is a god then he chooses to be dead rather than alive.

[Nihil Obstat]

I will just post the relevant section from the Catechism here. Number one, it says it better than I can, and number two I am technically in class right now.
Sorry, it is a bit of a docu-dump.



II. CHRIST'S REDEMPTIVE DEATH IN GOD'S PLAN OF SALVATION
"Jesus handed over according to the definite plan of God"
599 Jesus' violent death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is part of the mystery of God's plan, as St. Peter explains to the Jews of Jerusalem in his first sermon on Pentecost: "This Jesus (was) delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$PP"]393[/url][/sup] This Biblical language does not mean that those who handed him over were merely passive players in a scenario written in advance by God.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$PQ"]394[/url][/sup]
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$PR"]395[/url][/sup] For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$PS"]396[/url][/sup]
"He died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures"
601 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of "the righteous one, my Servant" as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$PT"]397[/url][/sup] Citing a confession of faith that he himself had "received", St. Paul professes that "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$PU"]398[/url][/sup] In particular Jesus' redemptive death fulfils Isaiah's prophecy of the suffering Servant.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$PV"]399[/url][/sup] Indeed Jesus himself explained the meaning of his life and death in the light of God's suffering Servant.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$PW"]400[/url][/sup] After his Resurrection he gave this interpretation of the Scriptures to the disciples at Emmaus, and then to the apostles.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$PX"]401[/url][/sup]
"For our sake God made him to be sin"
602 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: "You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers... with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$PY"]402[/url][/sup] Man's sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$PZ"]403[/url][/sup] By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God "made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$Q0"]404[/url][/sup]
603 Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$Q1"]405[/url][/sup] But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$Q2"]406[/url][/sup] Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God "did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all", so that we might be "reconciled to God by the death of his Son".[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$Q3"]407[/url][/sup]
God takes the initiative of universal redeeming love
604 By giving up his own Son for our sins, God manifests that his plan for us is one of benevolent love, prior to any merit on our part: "In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$Q4"]408[/url][/sup] God "shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$Q5"]409[/url][/sup]
605 At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God's love excludes no one: "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$Q6"]410[/url][/sup] He affirms that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many"; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$Q7"]411[/url][/sup] The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: "There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$Q8"]412[/url][/sup]
III. CHRIST OFFERED HIMSELF TO HIS FATHER FOR OUR SINS
Christ's whole life is an offering to the Father
606 The Son of God, who came down "from heaven, not to do (his) own will, but the will of him who sent (him)",[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$Q9"]413[/url][/sup] said on coming into the world, "Lo, I have come to do your will, O God." "and by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QA"]414[/url][/sup] From the first moment of his Incarnation the Son embraces the Father's plan of divine salvation in his redemptive mission: "My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QB"]415[/url][/sup] The sacrifice of Jesus "for the sins of the whole world"[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QC"]416[/url][/sup] expresses his loving communion with the Father. "The Father loves me, because I lay down my life", said the Lord, "(for) I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QD"]417[/url][/sup]
607 The desire to embrace his Father's plan of redeeming love inspired Jesus' whole life,[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QE"]418[/url][/sup] for his redemptive passion was the very reason for his Incarnation. and so he asked, "and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, for this purpose I have come to this hour."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QF"]419[/url][/sup] and again, "Shall I not drink the cup which the Father has given me?"[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QG"]420[/url][/sup] From the cross, just before "It is finished", he said, "I thirst."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QH"]421[/url][/sup]
"The Lamb who takes away the sin of the world"
608 After agreeing to baptize him along with the sinners, John the Baptist looked at Jesus and pointed him out as the "Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world".[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QI"]422[/url][/sup] By doing so, he reveals that Jesus is at the same time the suffering Servant who silently allows himself to be led to the slaughter and who bears the sin of the multitudes, and also the Paschal Lamb, the symbol of Israel's redemption at the first Passover.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QJ"]423[/url][/sup] Christ's whole life expresses his mission: "to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QK"]424[/url][/sup]
Jesus freely embraced the Father's redeeming love
609 By embracing in his human heart the Father's love for men, Jesus "loved them to the end", for "greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QL"]425[/url][/sup] In suffering and death his humanity became the free and perfect instrument of his divine love which desires the salvation of men.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QM"]426[/url][/sup] Indeed, out of love for his Father and for men, whom the Father wants to save, Jesus freely accepted his Passion and death: "No one takes [my life] from me, but I lay it down of my own accord."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QN"]427[/url][/sup] Hence the sovereign freedom of God's Son as he went out to his death.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QO"]428[/url][/sup]
At the Last Supper Jesus anticipated the free offering of his life
610 Jesus gave the supreme expression of his free offering of himself at the meal shared with the twelve Apostles "on the night he was betrayed".[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QP"]429[/url][/sup] On the eve of his Passion, while still free, Jesus transformed this Last Supper with the apostles into the memorial of his voluntary offering to the Father for the salvation of men: "This is my body which is given for you." "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QQ"]430[/url][/sup]
611 The Eucharist that Christ institutes at that moment will be the memorial of his sacrifice.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QR"]431[/url][/sup] Jesus includes the apostles in his own offering and bids them perpetuate it.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QS"]432[/url][/sup] By doing so, the Lord institutes his apostles as priests of the New Covenant: "For their sakes I sanctify myself, so that they also may be sanctified in truth."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QT"]433[/url][/sup]
The agony at Gethsemani
612 The cup of the New Covenant, which Jesus anticipated when he offered himself at the Last Supper, is afterwards accepted by him from his Father's hands in his agony in the garden at Gethsemani,[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QU"]434[/url][/sup] making himself "obedient unto death". Jesus prays: "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me. . ."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QV"]435[/url][/sup] Thus he expresses the horror that death represented for his human nature. Like ours, his human nature is destined for eternal life; but unlike ours, it is perfectly exempt from sin, the cause of death.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QW"]436[/url][/sup] Above all, his human nature has been assumed by the divine person of the "Author of life", the "Living One".[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QX"]437[/url][/sup] By accepting in his human will that the Father's will be done, he accepts his death as redemptive, for "he himself bore our sins in his body on the tree."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QY"]438[/url][/sup]
Christ's death is the unique and definitive sacrifice
613 Christ's death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world",[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$QZ"]439[/url][/sup] and the sacrifice of the New Covenant, which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the "blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins".[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$R0"]440[/url][/sup]
614 This sacrifice of Christ is unique; it completes and surpasses all other sacrifices.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$R1"]441[/url][/sup] First, it is a gift from God the Father himself, for the Father handed his Son over to sinners in order to reconcile us with himself. At the same time it is the offering of the Son of God made man, who in freedom and love offered his life to his Father through the Holy Spirit in reparation for our disobedience.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$R2"]442[/url][/sup]
Jesus substitutes his obedience for our disobedience
615 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$R3"]443[/url][/sup] By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who "makes himself an offering for sin", when "he bore the sin of many", and who "shall make many to be accounted righteous", for "he shall bear their iniquities".[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$R4"]444[/url][/sup] Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$R5"]445[/url][/sup]
Jesus consummates his sacrifice on the cross
616 It is love "to the end"[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$R6"]446[/url][/sup] that confers on Christ's sacrifice its value as redemption and reparation, as atonement and satisfaction. He knew and loved us all when he offered his life.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$R7"]447[/url][/sup] Now "the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$R8"]448[/url][/sup] No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. the existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all.
617 The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ's sacrifice as "the source of eternal salvation"[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$R9"]449[/url][/sup] and teaches that "his most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$RA"]450[/url][/sup] and the Church venerates his cross as she sings: "Hail, O Cross, our only hope."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$RB"]451[/url][/sup]
Our participation in Christ's sacrifice
618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the "one mediator between God and men".[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$RC"]452[/url][/sup] But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, "the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery" is offered to all men.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$RD"]453[/url][/sup] He calls his disciples to "take up [their] cross and follow (him)",[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$RE"]454[/url][/sup] for "Christ also suffered for (us), leaving (us) an example so that (we) should follow in his steps."[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$RF"]455[/url][/sup] In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$RG"]456[/url][/sup] This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$RH"]457[/url][/sup] Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM#$RI"]458[/url][/sup]

[reyb]

Nihil,

I think you missed the point of our question at hand. You have to settle this thing first while in consideration with your Catholic teaching.

Who gave this offering and to whom? Are you saying, Jesus’ death is an offering planned by God to give to himself by himself in order to appease his anger and then to forgive you?

Edited October 25, 2012 by reyb

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1351200798' post='2497674']
Nihil,

I think you missed the point of our question at hand. You have to settle this thing first while in consideration with your Catholic teaching.

Who gave this offering and to whom? Are you saying, Jesus’ death is an offering planned by God to give to himself by himself in order to appease his anger and then to forgive you?
[/quote]
I was not addressing you, dude.

[reyb]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1351201076' post='2497675']
I was not addressing you, dude.
[/quote]


I know but your answer -which is the Catholic doctrine- to Stevie is our topic in this thread and that is, Why did Jesus have to die?


CCC seems implying that God made an offering to appease his anger against you and this offering is actually himself too. So you are practically saying, God made an offering for himself - which is actually himself - to appease his anger towards you. Thus, this thread was started by asking ‘Why did Jesus have to die? Couldn't God have forgiven sins without this?

So again my question is this: (since you are the one who believe on this doctrine)

How this death of Jesus saves you from the wrath of God?

[Nihil Obstat]

That time I only addressed you to make it clear I did not want to address you. Good try.

[reyb]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1351204074' post='2497691']
That time I only addressed you to make it clear I did not want to address you. Good try.
[/quote]


Okay. I thought you could explain it – how his death saves you.

Edited October 25, 2012 by reyb

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1351205642' post='2497702']



Okay. I thought you could explain it – how his death saves you.
[/quote]
Nope. I just have no intention of wasting my time with you. God bless.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1351190875' post='2497612']
What was it that he sacrificed?

[/quote]
Why not try being crucified! Do you have the capacity to visualise how painful that is? What would you think of him if he had run away and hidden or escaped on a white cloud drawn by angels and then you had been vomiting blood and dying in agony from cancer. If God had not taken human form and shown his willingness to experience human suffering and death as a demonstration of his [b]true relationship[/b] with us. We would have been left with the OT! I for one could only accept the doctrine of Jesus Christ as making any sense in such a screwed up world. So if that didn't exist I would have no reason to exist. I would fall victim to my depression! We don't know why it is necessary to suffer and die to reach him only that it must be because he made the ultimate demonstration to show us that it is the only way. And no he does not have absolute power in order to create an easier way. The absolute fullness of love can only be expressed by the maximum possible sacrifice given for the one that is loved.

And Rey I'm taking a break from you at the mo. I can't think of anything that may be of value to anyone who may have the misfortune to stumble on this thread and you won't listen to anyone, so no point in posting. You need to stop trying to interpret scripture like a children's fairy tale book. The Philippines is a modern, well educated and enlightened culture. Scripture was written by people in a more illiterate, restrictive and different culture to yours. Scripture needs to be interpreted by people who have been highly educated about the times places, cultures and people that were the source of Biblical writing. Your hero Saint Paul was a man given a special and holy task by God but he was still a man and not perfect. Not everything he wrote was for us. some was his venting of depression in his human failings and sinfulness. Maybe a lesson in itself, maybe not.The Bible is not Gods word on a word for word basis. It is the word of God when you wish God to talk to you. The Bible is meaningless gibberish to those who seek to see only there own truths and try not to believe it. In other words it's encrypted and the key to the encryption is in your heart by an honest desire for Christ and his love.

Edit:- Peace be with you.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[reyb]

Nihil, Mark and all phatmassers,

There is a difference between not listening and not agreeing and I can guarantee you I am always listening because I am always asking questions based on ‘teachings’ presented.

You are correct too in the futility of trying to prove its relationship. I am very sure of this. As long as you are looking at this historical Jesus Christ, you will never see how your sins are forgiven through his death.

Actually, because of your ‘sincere and pure devotion to Christ’ you just accept it to be true without asking questions how it becomes possible. But if you are one in the spirit with Apostle Paul you must have known why did Jesus have to die otherwise you will never understand what he is saying in Eph 2:14-18
[indent=1]
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.[/indent]

Edited October 26, 2012 by reyb

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1351221098' post='2497830']
Nihil, Mark and all phatmassers,

There is a difference between not listening and not agreeing[/quote]


This is where I stopped reading.
We have established with absolute crystalline clarity that we do not agree, and frankly that we never will agree unless you give up what you believe.
[i]Now[/i] I am not listening. It serves absolutely zero purpose to continue discussing this with you.

[reyb]

So, you are now telling me 'believe what we believe and you will become one with us'. But, what is the sense of that kind of oneness if everything is based on belief without proper reasoning? True witnesses will never teach that kind of stupid teaching because it will create divisions and factions among believers who thinks differently from one another.

Edited October 26, 2012 by reyb

[BarbTherese]

I am very happy indeed to see that you are ok, reyb! .................in fact, fighting fit

God bless us all with His Peace and His Joy...............Barb

Edited October 26, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[reyb]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1351243757' post='2497881']
I am very happy indeed to see that you are ok, reyb! .................in fact, fighting fit

God bless us all with His Peace and His Joy...............Barb
[/quote]

Thank you.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1351241035' post='2497876']
So, you are now telling me
[/quote]

I do not know what you just said. I am telling you that I do not wish to debate with you.