ACS67 Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 (edited) Slappo, You are assuming US tax deductions on a German tax system. The article gave an estimate...it's about 9% according to the article. Therefore a $25,000 salary would incur $2250 yearly in tax to the Church, about $187.50 per month. And no...I do not tithe that much. dUSt, I would never "pay to pray." That's not why I tithe.... Edited September 28, 2012 by ACS67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 [quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1348867480' post='2487706'] dUSt, I would never "pay to pray." That's not why I tithe.... [/quote] So you would publicly declare that you are not Catholic to avoid the tax. We differ. I wouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1348867099' post='2487702'] Nobody has a moral obligation to tell the government they're Catholic. It's an asinine law. Not all laws made by stupid politicians should be obeyed. The Church should tell the German government to go hang. [/quote] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhXsD7bct_M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhXsD7bct_M[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 I am really torn by this one. On the one hand, it is objectively wrong, and if I am not mistaken grave matter, for a Catholic to actually actively say or make some kind of statement that "I am not Catholic." While it is not possible under current canon law to formally apostatize, it is still gravely wrong to deny the Church. Making some assumptions about how these tax forms are worded, it is entirely conceivable to me that opting out of the church tax would require some kind of active denial of the faith, therefore gravely sinful, and presumably that person excommunicates himself latae sententiae. Looking at it that way, this person should not present himself for Communion for obvious reasons. On the other hand, I find it problematic for the German bishops to be colluding with the State in such a way. That strikes me as very much a deal with the devil. Basically these problems are on two very different levels, one overtly political, and one exclusively canonical and moral, making this a rather strange, even disjointed discussion. Sooner or later our bishops are going to have to understand that nothing good ever comes from getting cozy with the State. It has already bitten us in the US, because we got complacent. Now we are dealing with attacks on freedom of religion and freedom of conscience. In Canada at least one Catholic bishop was charged with what essentially amounts to hatespeech simply for reiterating the Catholic position on homosexual 'marriage'. These attacks will get worse. We as a Church are in a position right now where the State, in nearly every relevant nation worldwide, is either an enemy, or a very shifty neutral party. At the mildest we should be very suspicious of every government action that vaguely relates to religion. Frankly, in most cases we need to treat the State as a predator which, if it has not attacked already, is simply waiting for the best opportunity to do so. Instead we still try to treat the State as an ally. It is not. That is a naive and dangerous oversight. It is going to keep coming back to bite us, again and again. The State is beneath us, really. It is based on lies and manipulation. We are doing nothing more than dirtying our hands by interacting with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 There was a time in the early church where in order to have a state job you had to swear you weren't Christian. Denying the faith to save money is the same as denying the church to make money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 [quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1348867480' post='2487706'] Slappo, You are assuming US tax deductions on a German tax system. The article gave an estimate...it's about 9% according to the article. Therefore a $25,000 salary would incur $2250 yearly in tax to the Church, about $187.50 per month. And no...I do not tithe that much. dUSt, I would never "pay to pray." That's not why I tithe.... [/quote] ACS you're way off. Applying the US Tax code would show what this same tax would look like if it were ever instituted in the United States. [quote][b]Kirchensteuer - Church tax[/b] If you belong to one of the main religions and you put this down when you register as resident at your arrival in Germany you will have to pay church tax. [b]Take 8% of your [u]income tax due in a year[/u][/b], and it is ON TOP. Only consolation is that you can deduct it from your gross income in your income tax statement (Einkommensteuer). You can formally deregister from your religious organisation and this will also terminate your church tax exposure.[/quote] No... a $25k salary would incur 8% of the total income taxes they paid. Lets assume Germany even has a crazy 30% tax rate. 25k*.3=7500 in income taxes. 8% of your income taxes is then 7500*.08=$600. $600 split monthly is [b]$50 a month[/b]. That's assuming they pay [b]$7.5k in taxes on 25k of gross income [/b]though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1348871920' post='2487731'] There was a time in the early church where in order to have a state job you had to swear you weren't Christian. Denying the faith to save money is the same as denying the church to make money. [/quote] There's no option to just not answer. It's coercion. It's not a sin to give into physical threats. And that's what this is, make no mistake. Any Catholic enforcing this law is in danger of grave sin, but Catholics who circumvent it somehow are well within their rights. I hope the black market grows in power from this the essence of cow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACS67 Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 The Church is wrong on this matter. And let's be honest....it ain't the first time they have been wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 [quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1348873056' post='2487738'] The Church is wrong on this matter. And let's be honest....it ain't the first time they have been wrong! [/quote] Sure, but so are the Catholics who deny the Faith in order to avoid a tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACS67 Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 $50 a month pays a bill or two in my house hombre.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 [url="http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/27/german-bishops-decree-on-church-tax-a-call-to-integrity/"]http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/27/german-bishops-decree-on-church-tax-a-call-to-integrity/[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 [quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1348873974' post='2487747'] Sure, but so are the Catholics who deny the Faith in order to avoid a tax. [/quote] Yeah, because increasing the power of Germany by complying with this the essence of cow is oh so Catholic. Screw Germany and this law. From the pieces of poo who brought you the Holocaust, Religion Tracking! I don't have enough middle fingers to respond to this croutons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 So if I went to someone's home (I assume I'd need some kind of costume denoting me as a special kind of human exempt from the Ten Commandments) and gave them a form to fill out telling me their religion so I could take money from them accordingly they'd be morally obliged to fill it out. The government is a man with a gun. It can kidnap you. This is not a healthy relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1348879320' post='2487803'] So if I went to someone's home (I assume I'd need some kind of costume denoting me as a special kind of human exempt from the Ten Commandments) and gave them a form to fill out telling me their religion so I could take money from them accordingly they'd be morally obliged to fill it out. The government is a man with a gun. It can kidnap you. This is not a healthy relationship. [/quote] My position on this is that it would be moral to refuse to file taxes, avoid taxes, whatever. Hide all your gypsy gold in an account in the Cayman Islands- I do not even care how you do it. Beat the system any way (moral) you can, and more power to you. But I also do not think it would be moral to, for instance, check a box saying "I am no longer a member of the Catholic Church", or something along those lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1348878950' post='2487801'] Yeah, because increasing the power of Germany by complying with this the essence of cow is oh so Catholic. Screw Germany and this law. From the pieces of poo who brought you the Holocaust, Religion Tracking! I don't have enough middle fingers to respond to this croutons. [/quote] It has nothing to do with complying with an unjust law. It has everything to do with renouncing your faith. You can't "fake" renounce your faith in order to bypass an unjust law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now