No Tax Payment, No Blessing!

[dUSt]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1348860554' post='2487668']
A false and misleading analogy.

The question is, should Religions be able to:
A- require MANDATORY financial contributions,
B- have collection administered through the Government,
C- at the pain of losing membership to the Religion?
[/quote]

So your premise is that the Church is forcing the Government to collect the taxes.
Please show me your basis for this.

[dUSt]

Also, you said this is a false analogy:

[indent=1][i]In order to [color=#ff8c00]qualify for the tax break[/color], you must make an official declaration that you are an [color=#ff0000]athiest[/color]. Should the [color=#008000]U.S. bishops[/color] then say, ok, that's cool. Come receive communion while you are publicly declaring yourself an [color=#ff0000]athiest[/color].[/i][/indent]

But changing a few words describes exactly what is happening in Germany:

[indent=1][i]In order to [color=#ff8c00]opt out of the tax[/color], you must make an official declaration that you are [color=#ff0000]not Catholic[/color]. Should the [color=#008000]German bishops[/color] then say, ok, that's cool. Come receive communion while you are publicly declaring yourself [color=#ff0000]not Catholic[/color].[/i][/indent]

Color coded for your convenience. How is the analogy false?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1348860907' post='2487671']
So your premise is that the Church is forcing the Government to collect the taxes.
Please show me your basis for this.
[/quote]
[b]From a German Social site explaining life in Germany.[/b]

[b]Kirchensteuer - Church tax[/b]

If you belong to one of the main religions and you put this down when you register as resident at your arrival in Germany you will have to pay church tax. Take 8% of your income tax due in a year, and it is ON TOP. Only consolation is that you can deduct it from your gross income in your income tax statement (Einkommensteuer). You can formally deregister from your religious organisation and this will also terminate your church tax exposure. See: [url="http://www.kirchenaustritt.de/"]kirchenaustritt.de[/url]

From Wiki:
About 70% of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_(building)"]church[/url] revenues come from [i]church tax[/i]. This is about [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro"]€[/url]9.2 billion (in 2010).
Article 137 of the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Constitution"]Weimar Constitution[/url] of 1919 and article 140 of the German [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law_for_the_Federal_Republic_of_Germany"]Basic Law[/url] of 1949 are the legal basis for this practice.
In Germany, on the basis of tax regulations passed by the communities and within the limits set by state laws, communities may either[list]
[*]require the taxation authorities of the state to collect the fees from the members on the basis of income tax assessment (then, the authorities withhold a collection fee), or
[*]choose to collect the church tax themselves.
[/list]
In the first case, membership in the community is entered onto a tax document ([i]Lohnsteuerkarte[/i]) which employees must surrender to their employers for the purpose of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withholding"]withholding[/url] tax on paid income. If membership in a tax-collecting religious community is entered on the document, the employer must withhold church tax prepayments from the income of the employee in addition to other tax prepayments. In connection with the final annual income tax assessment, the state revenue authorities also finally assess the church tax owed. In the case of self-employed persons or of unemployed taxpayers, state revenue authorities collect prepayments on the church tax together with prepayments on the income tax.
If, however, religious communities choose to collect church tax themselves, they may demand that the tax authorities reveal taxation data of their members to calculate the contributions and prepayments owed. In particular, some smaller communities (e.g. the Jewish Community of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin"]Berlin[/url]) choose to collect taxes themselves to save collection fees the government would charge otherwise.
Collection of church tax may be used to cover any church-related expenses such as founding institutions and foundations or paying ministers.
The church tax is only paid by members of the respective church. People who are not members of a church tax-collecting denomination do not have to pay it. Members of a religious community under public law may formally declare their wish to leave the community to state (not religious) authorities. With such a declaration, the obligation to pay church taxes ends. Some communities refuse to administer marriages and burials of (former) members who had declared to leave it.


[b]From a Travel site describing the workings of religions around Europe. Not an anti-religion site. [url="http://www.sacred-destinations.com/germany/germany-religion.htm"]http://www.sacred-destinations.com/germany/germany-religion.htm[/url][/b]

In the Federal Republic, freedom of religion is guaranteed by Article 4 of the Basic Law, and the churches enjoy a special legal status as corporate bodies. In theory, there is constitutional separation of church and state, but church financing complicates this separation. To support churches and their work, most Germans in the old [i]Länder[/i] pay a voluntary church tax, amounting to an 8 or 9 percent surcharge on income tax paid. Living in a society known for consensus and conformity, few West Germans formally withdrew from the established churches before the 1980s and hence continued to pay the tax.

[dUSt]

That article is not saying anything I haven't said. The person must declare that they are no longer Catholic to opt out of the tax.

[i][color=#282828][font='Open Sans', sans-serif]"You can formally deregister from your religious organisation and this will also terminate your church tax exposure."[/font][/color][/i]

[font="Open Sans, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]If anything, this article reinforces what I was saying about the government requiring the tax, and not the Church.[/color][/font]

[Anomaly]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1348861284' post='2487673']
Also, you said this is a false analogy:

[i]In order to [color=#ff8c00]qualify for the tax break[/color], you must make an official declaration that you are an [color=#ff0000]athiest[/color]. Should the [color=#008000]U.S. bishops[/color] then say, ok, that's cool. Come receive communion while you are publicly declaring yourself an [color=#ff0000]athiest[/color].[/i]

But changing a few words describes exactly what is happening in Germany:

[i]In order to [color=#ff8c00]opt out of the tax[/color], you must make an official declaration that you are [color=#ff0000]not Catholic[/color]. Should the [color=#008000]German bishops[/color] then say, ok, that's cool. Come receive communion while you are publicly declaring yourself [color=#ff0000]not Catholic[/color].[/i]

Color coded for your convenience. How is the analogy false?
[/quote]It's not about just a 'tax break'. It's the Relgion requireing payment from it's members.

Maybe I'm spoiled with the American perspective that contributions to one's religions is strictly a matter of [u]private and personal conscience[/u].

Could not the German Catholic Church choose to opt out of receiving money via Government Authorized Taxes and tell their congregation to listen to the conscience

[b]1744[/b] Freedom is the power to act or not to act, and so to perform deliberate acts of one's own. Freedom attains perfection in its acts when directed toward God, the sovereign Good.
[url=""][b]1745[/b] Freedom characterizes properly human acts. It makes the human being responsible for acts of which he is the voluntary agent. His deliberate acts properly belong to him.
[/url][b]1746[/b] The imputability or responsibility for an action can be diminished or nullified by ignorance, duress, fear, and other psychological or social factors.
[url=""][b]1747[/b] The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in religious and moral matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of man. But the exercise of freedom does not entail the putative right to say or do anything.
[b]2408[/b] The seventh commandment forbids [i]theft[/i], that is, usurping another's property against the reasonable will of the owner. There is no theft if consent can be presumed or if refusal is contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods. This is the case in obvious and urgent necessity when the only way to provide for immediate, essential needs (food, shelter, clothing . . .) is to put at one's disposal and use the property of others.[sup][size="2"]191[/size][/sup]
[/url][b]<a href="javascript:openWindow('cr/2409.htm');">2409[/b] Even if it does not contradict the provisions of civil law, any form of unjustly taking and keeping the property of others is against the seventh commandment: thus, deliberate retention of goods lent or of objects lost; business fraud; paying unjust wages; forcing up prices by taking advantage of the ignorance or hardship of another.[sup][size="2"]192[/size][/sup]


It seems that true act of Charity must be a freely voluntary response.

[beatitude]

I mostly agree with Anomaly on this one. The tax may be imposed by the government, but the German bishops are certainly colluding with it and the Church in Germany is benefiting from it financially.

I believe in the separation of church and state. History has demonstrated that when the two aren't separate, our religious practice becomes tainted (e.g. by a preoccupation with money and worldly power). The government should not be imposing some special religious tax in the first place and it is the responsibility of the bishops to oppose it if one is levied. Reading the articles about this case, I was reminded of Jesus' words about trying to serve God and Mammon.

I don't think that anyone should be disavowing their faith over this, but that doesn't mean they should just submit to it either.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1348861829' post='2487676']
That article is not saying anything I haven't said. The person must declare that they are no longer Catholic to opt out of the tax.

[i][color=#282828][font=Open Sans', sans-serif']"You can formally deregister from your religious organisation and this will also terminate your church tax exposure."[/font][/color][/i]

[font=Open Sans, sans-serif][color=#282828]If anything, this article reinforces what I was saying about the government requiring the tax, and not the Church.[/color][/font]
[/quote]dUSt,
The Government does not require the Tax.

German Laws allow religious communities to require the Tax and have it collected through the Government.

[color=#0000ff]In Germany, on the basis of tax regulations passed by the communities and within the limits set by state laws, communities may either[/color][list]
[*][color=#0000ff]require the taxation authorities of the state to collect the fees from the members on the basis of income tax assessment (then, the authorities withhold a collection fee), or[/color]
[*][color=#0000ff]choose to collect the church tax themselves.[/color]
[/list]

[ACS67]

dUSt, when I read the article I came to the conclusion that people are claiming to not belong to any religion because they cannot pay this tax. Perhaps Germans are as strapped as some of us Americans are. Some in the article stated they do indeed still have the faith but they cannot afford the tax. They should not be punished because of financial circumstances. Perhaps there is a waiver for those on hard times that is not mentioned in the article. Otherwise I find this outrageous. I would not be able to afford 8% tax to go to my parish on top of all the taxes I already pay. I would opt out but that in no way would mean I no longer "have the faith" or am denouncing my faith. I simply would not have the means to pay this tax and my bills therefore I would have to make an "official declaration" of "leaving the faith" based on the fact that I cannot pay the tax but the declaration would be false.

Again, that is how I am reading it. If I have missed something I am open to correction.

[dUSt]

I think you all are missing the point of opting out of the tax means you are publicly declaring you are not Catholic.

So, ACS67, you would make a declaration that you are not Catholic to avoid the tax?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1348862994' post='2487683']
dUSt,
The Government does not require the Tax.

German Laws allow religious communities to require the Tax and have it collected through the Government.

[color=#0000ff]In Germany, on the basis of tax regulations passed by the communities and within the limits set by state laws, communities may either[/color][list]
[*][color=#0000ff]require the taxation authorities of the state to collect the fees from the members on the basis of income tax assessment (then, the authorities withhold a collection fee), or[/color]
[*][color=#0000ff]choose to collect the church tax themselves.[/color]
[/list]
[/quote]

Where does it say the government does not require the tax?

I see:
- require taxation authorities to collect tax
- communities collect tax themselves

I do not see
- do not collect the tax

[dUSt]

If it is as easy as the Catholic Church in Germany saying, "we do not require a Church tax" and the German government saying, "okay", then why hasn't this been done yet?

[Slappo]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1348863251' post='2487685']
dUSt, when I read the article I came to the conclusion that people are claiming to not belong to any religion because they cannot pay this tax. Perhaps Germans are as strapped as some of us Americans are. Some in the article stated they do indeed still have the faith but they cannot afford the tax. They should not be punished because of financial circumstances. Perhaps there is a waiver for those on hard times that is not mentioned in the article. Otherwise I find this outrageous. I would not be able to afford 8% tax to go to my parish on top of all the taxes I already pay. I would opt out but that in no way would mean I no longer "have the faith" or am denouncing my faith. I simply would not have the means to pay this tax and my bills therefore I would have to make an "official declaration" of "leaving the faith" based on the fact that I cannot pay the tax but the declaration would be false.

Again, that is how I am reading it. If I have missed something I am open to correction.
[/quote]

It's more like a 1.6%ish tax on your gross middle class income that goes to the Church. For someone who is poor, they pay a lower % of their income in taxes to the government, and 8-9% of the taxes they pay would be less than 1.6% of their gross income.

If a tax of 9% of your income taxes was imposed in the USA it would look like this for a 20k a year single income individual with no dependents, no student loans, no other deductions:
[b]20k gross[/b] - 5950 standard deduction - 3800 personal exemption = 10250 taxable income. The tax bracket for income under 17k is 10%. 10250*0.10 = 1025 in taxes. Now add the 9% church tax to your 1025 in taxes. 1025*0.09=$92.25 for the year. Split out into monthly payments? 92.25/12=[b]$7.69 a month church tax[/b].

One should probably be tithing more than that anyways. On top of that, is renouncing your faith worth $7.69 a month even if you are dirt poor? Fast one day a month to save on food costs and there you have it. Now you're fasting [b]and[/b] tithing!



The Church is not providing the tax, the government is. That being said, I think the Church should be opposed to the tax and should effectively lobby or petition the government to take the tax off of Catholics. Morally the Church is right to [b]refrain from providing sacraments to those who have publicly renounced the faith[/b]. Refusing confession though? How else do you confess your sin of renouncing the faith? You have to fill out paperwork and show proof of enrollment before you can walk into the confessional?

[Anomaly]

dUSt,
The part "on the basis of tax regulations passed by the communities". The "communities" are the Religions that have met the Government standards to be declared as an acceptable religion/community and is provided taxing authority. They community is allowed to set the tax rate on their members (limited to what's allowed by Government). The Community can either choose to collect the tax themselves, or collect it via the Government for a fee.

What if the Church decided to collect it themselves and would then have to worry about 'enforcement' and make allowances. I have not seen anything that requires a 'community' to collect taxes. But even so, isn't the Church allowed to change the tax rate?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1348864655' post='2487692']
What if the Church decided to collect it themselves and would then have to worry about 'enforcement' and make allowances. I have not seen anything that requires a 'community' to collect taxes. But even so, isn't the Church allowed to change the tax rate?
[/quote]

Let's assume that the government requires the tax to be collected. I don't know, and I'm assuming you don't either. For the sake of the discussion, let's assume the government requires it. In other words, it's the law.

Are you proposing that the Catholic Church opt for the "we'll collect the taxes ourselves" option, and then break the law by not requiring everyone to pay the tax?

[Winchester]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1348863915' post='2487687']
I think you all are missing the point of opting out of the tax means you are publicly declaring you are not Catholic.

So, ACS67, you would make a declaration that you are not Catholic to avoid the tax?
[/quote]
Nobody has a moral obligation to tell the government they're Catholic. It's an asinine law.

[quote]Let's assume that the government requires the tax to be collected. I don't know, and I'm assuming you don't either. For the sake of the discussion, let's assume the government requires it. In other words, it's the law.

Are you proposing that the Catholic Church opt for the "we'll collect the taxes ourselves" option, and then break the law by not requiring everyone to pay the tax?[/quote]
Not all laws made by stupid politicians should be obeyed. The Church should tell the German government to go hang.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Winchester