Priest Bans Yoga For 'being Incompatible With Catholic Faith'

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1348811049' post='2487519']
This is highly debatable. Source: practiced karate for 15+ years.
[/quote]

It was in Okinawa. Okinawa was highly Religious, and I know many of their traditional forms have spiritual stuff put into them.

What style do you do, out of curiosity? If you say Taekwondo I will be allowed by God to shoot you, unless of course He gets you first. Taekwondo isn't karate, it's Taekwondo. Though I am sure you already know that and practice something else.

Edited September 28, 2012 by FuturePriest387

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1348811221' post='2487521']
It was in Okinawa. Okinawa was highly Religious, and I know many of their traditional forms have spiritual stuff put into them.

What style do you do, out of curiosity? If you say Taekwondo I will be allowed by God to shoot you, unless of course He gets you first. Taekwondo isn't karate, it's Taekwondo. Though I am sure you already know that and practice something else.
[/quote]

It is highly debatable that spiritual aspects are somehow a more or less inherent part of "real, traditional karate". It is not controversial, and not particularly interesting, that spiritual practices were integrated into karate. Japan, especially during the period when karate was developing in Okinawa, had a lot of Shinto and Buddhist practices. They are a part of many aspects of Japanese life, even today when Japan is mostly rather atheistic. What I take issue with is saying that it is somehow integral to traditional karate, as you implied. If there are spiritual/religious artifacts present in some forms of karate, it is almost certainly because those same spiritual/religious artifacts are or were prevalent in Japan or Okinawa in general. Karate just inherited the culture around it. Therefore those artifacts are not essential to the practice of karate.
Karate is not and never has been a monolithic entity. This was even more true while it developed in Okinawa, since there were approximately as many styles as there were teachers. Perhaps more. (Though of course we divide Okinawan martial arts into three very broad categories.)
Since the origins of karate are highly variable, you can say more or less anything you want about "traditional" karate, and it is probably going to be true. It is true that it was something monks studied, and it is equally true that it is something peasants, warriors, and samurai, and soldiers studied. (Most of those are typically more true at different points along its development.)
It is true that at times it had religious/spiritual aspects, it is true that it had many philosophical aspects (especially after Funakoshi's influence), and it is true that at many other times it did not.

Many traditional aspects have a spiritual [i]interpretation[/i], but in most cases those aspects also have a non-spiritual interpretation. And, in fact, many things about karate that are thrown around as being traditional can be shown to be of very dubious origin.

You mentioned 'spiritual energy' and weight of a belt. I'll tackle that one, since you also know that it is bunk.
First, belts are not traditional to karate. You probably know that they came from judo. From what I hear, Judo adapted it from the board game Go. Which is kind of embarrassing, if you are concerned about that kind of thing. It would be like if professional MMA fighters started using Dungeons and Dragons terminology or something...
So belts themselves are not traditional. Most myths about belts are really silly stories made up to sound mystical.
The particular myth you heard is probably based on the more popular myth that washing your belt is 'bad'. A lot of karateka, and most especially the not-very-good ones will insist that the reason that you may never wash your belt is that you wash out its 'energy', or whatever you want to call it. They get this in turn from the myth that in the early days of karate (whatever those were), a student started off with a white belt which got progressively dirtier and dirtier until it was literally black with grime, meaning they were now an expert.
Needless to say this is absolutely nothing more than a myth, and has zero basis in historical fact. Also it has zero basis in anything vaguely religious or spiritual. Frankly, I am willing to argue that the spiritual aspect was made up by Japanophile westerners who wanted to add mystique to their McDojos. They are the same ones who prostrate themselves before pictures of Funakoshi or Miyagi or Yamaguchi. I will never do that, and it has nothing to do with karate.

The same kind of debunking is true of most, if not all karate myths.

Meditating, for example, is not essential to karate, nor even essential for 'authenticity'. Simply speaking, it is something, presumably, that Okinawans or Japanese people did because they were Okinawan or Japanese. It is just as true that I don't have to go to a Shinto shrine on New Year's and pray for good luck, even though Japanese people often do that to this day.

Western practitioners of karate are [i]way[/i] too hung up on 'authenticity', and they do not even really know what it means. So much so that they seize upon anything vaguely Okinawan or Japanese and try to give it some deep, mysterious meaning so that they more closely resemble the warrior-monks they think practitioners of martial arts are supposed to transform into. It is silly and immature, and has nothing to do with a serious, un-self-conscious study of martial arts.
Like how some clubs chant the dojo kun after their classes. That is silly. Sillier still when they chant it in Japanese, because I guarantee they are pronouncing it wrong and have no idea what it means. The dojo kun is an idiosyncratic and somewhat rambling list of kind of interesting pieces of advice that Gichin Funakoshi came up with. Same goes for the Niju kun. Yeah, he was a bright guy and very important to Japanese karate, but the dojo kun and niju kun are not necessary for 'authentic' training. They are more cultural oddities than anything else. Interesting, perhaps deserving of study for historical purposes. Good look into Funakoshi's character and motivation and intentions. Not much more than that.


TL;DR:

Karate is still karate even after you take out every single spiritual or religious or philosophical aspect, because karate is a martial art. It is not, and never has been a religious practice. Religious or spiritual artifacts that can be found within some variations of karate are a product of the wider culture, and are not essential to the karate itself. Besides that, most of those religious or spiritual aspects are in fact complete myths invented by Japanophile westerners who desperately want to emulate some weird archetype that has no basis in fact or reason.

</endrant>

Also, since you asked, I am a second degree black belt in Shotokan, and I will most likely be promoted to sandan around May or June. I have been practicing since I was about six.

[ilovechrist]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1348802238' post='2487494']
Eating at the Olive Garden is more dangerous. Ever look at the nutrition facts? Scary stuff.
[/quote]

I second this notion. I was encouraged to try hot yoga, ironically, by my chiropractor to strengthen my flexibility (and therefore my spine) so that I wouldn't have to keep paying his outrageous prices. The gym I went to certainly didn't imply anything of the Hindu foundation, but I know enough about it to understand that if you were to go deeper in the meditational side of things the signs would be there.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1348815455' post='2487536']
It is highly debatable that spiritual aspects are somehow a more or less inherent part of "real, traditional karate". It is not controversial, and not particularly interesting, that spiritual practices were integrated into karate. Japan, especially during the period when karate was developing in Okinawa, had a lot of Shinto and Buddhist practices. They are a part of many aspects of Japanese life, even today when Japan is mostly rather atheistic. What I take issue with is saying that it is somehow integral to traditional karate, as you implied. If there are spiritual/religious artifacts present in some forms of karate, it is almost certainly because those same spiritual/religious artifacts are or were prevalent in Japan or Okinawa in general. Karate just inherited the culture around it. Therefore those artifacts are not essential to the practice of karate.
Karate is not and never has been a monolithic entity. This was even more true while it developed in Okinawa, since there were approximately as many styles as there were teachers. Perhaps more. (Though of course we divide Okinawan martial arts into three very broad categories.)
Since the origins of karate are highly variable, you can say more or less anything you want about "traditional" karate, and it is probably going to be true. It is true that it was something monks studied, and it is equally true that it is something peasants, warriors, and samurai, and soldiers studied. (Most of those are typically more true at different points along its development.)
It is true that at times it had religious/spiritual aspects, it is true that it had many philosophical aspects (especially after Funakoshi's influence), and it is true that at many other times it did not.

Many traditional aspects have a spiritual [i]interpretation[/i], but in most cases those aspects also have a non-spiritual interpretation. And, in fact, many things about karate that are thrown around as being traditional can be shown to be of very dubious origin.

You mentioned 'spiritual energy' and weight of a belt. I'll tackle that one, since you also know that it is bunk.
First, belts are not traditional to karate. You probably know that they came from judo. From what I hear, Judo adapted it from the board game Go. Which is kind of embarrassing, if you are concerned about that kind of thing. It would be like if professional MMA fighters started using Dungeons and Dragons terminology or something...
So belts themselves are not traditional. Most myths about belts are really silly stories made up to sound mystical.
The particular myth you heard is probably based on the more popular myth that washing your belt is 'bad'. A lot of karateka, and most especially the not-very-good ones will insist that the reason that you may never wash your belt is that you wash out its 'energy', or whatever you want to call it. They get this in turn from the myth that in the early days of karate (whatever those were), a student started off with a white belt which got progressively dirtier and dirtier until it was literally black with grime, meaning they were now an expert.
Needless to say this is absolutely nothing more than a myth, and has zero basis in historical fact. Also it has zero basis in anything vaguely religious or spiritual. Frankly, I am willing to argue that the spiritual aspect was made up by Japanophile westerners who wanted to add mystique to their McDojos. They are the same ones who prostrate themselves before pictures of Funakoshi or Miyagi or Yamaguchi. I will never do that, and it has nothing to do with karate.

The same kind of debunking is true of most, if not all karate myths.

Meditating, for example, is not essential to karate, nor even essential for 'authenticity'. Simply speaking, it is something, presumably, that Okinawans or Japanese people did because they were Okinawan or Japanese. It is just as true that I don't have to go to a Shinto shrine on New Year's and pray for good luck, even though Japanese people often do that to this day.

Western practitioners of karate are [i]way[/i] too hung up on 'authenticity', and they do not even really know what it means. So much so that they seize upon anything vaguely Okinawan or Japanese and try to give it some deep, mysterious meaning so that they more closely resemble the warrior-monks they think practitioners of martial arts are supposed to transform into. It is silly and immature, and has nothing to do with a serious, un-self-conscious study of martial arts.
Like how some clubs chant the dojo kun after their classes. That is silly. Sillier still when they chant it in Japanese, because I guarantee they are pronouncing it wrong and have no idea what it means. The dojo kun is an idiosyncratic and somewhat rambling list of kind of interesting pieces of advice that Gichin Funakoshi came up with. Same goes for the Niju kun. Yeah, he was a bright guy and very important to Japanese karate, but the dojo kun and niju kun are not necessary for 'authentic' training. They are more cultural oddities than anything else. Interesting, perhaps deserving of study for historical purposes. Good look into Funakoshi's character and motivation and intentions. Not much more than that.


TL;DR:

Karate is still karate even after you take out every single spiritual or religious or philosophical aspect, because karate is a martial art. It is not, and never has been a religious practice. Religious or spiritual artifacts that can be found within some variations of karate are a product of the wider culture, and are not essential to the karate itself. Besides that, most of those religious or spiritual aspects are in fact complete myths invented by Japanophile westerners who desperately want to emulate some weird archetype that has no basis in fact or reason.

</endrant>

Also, since you asked, I am a second degree black belt in Shotokan, and I will most likely be promoted to sandan around May or June. I have been practicing since I was about six.
[/quote]



Teach me more, wise one. All I was ever taught is a lie!

And Shotokan is pretty cool from what I see. Bear Grylls has a 2nd degree I believe in Shotokan karate. He went to Japan and was taught by a very famous black belt there.

Edited September 28, 2012 by FuturePriest387

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1348817596' post='2487542']


Teach me more, wise one. All I was ever taught is a lie!

And Shotokan is pretty cool from what I see. Bear Grylls has a 2nd degree I believe in Shotokan karate. He went to Japan and was taught by a very famous black belt there.
[/quote]

Shotokan is pretty cool. Lately I am rather more interested in doing some cross training in something with a more distinctly Okinawan flavour, for instance Goku-ryu, but I have not had the opportunity, and may not for several years. Since I have moved into the dan levels I have become less and less preoccupied with the particular style I am practicing, and more concerned with my pet theory that all styles can essentially be found within each other, to a greater or lesser degree, and it is simply a matter of emphasizing or reinterpreting certain key techniques and stances. To that end, whenever I have the opportunity I have been learning kata that are typical of styles besides Shotokan, especially those which are distinctively not Shotokan, and trying to integrate their characteristics into the Shotokan techniques I already practice day to day.

Wesley Snipes apparently is also rather adept at Shotokan, as is Jean-Claude van Damme and Lyoto Machida.

Shotokan is very distinctively Japanese, as opposed to Okinawan. At least in my opinion. At the basic levels the impression it gives is of strength, directness, and 'rootedness', as opposed to the rather flowing and circular moves that are more typical in Okinawan styles. According to my own theories, which I think are not particularly controversial, all styles tend to blend into one another as the karateka becomes more and more adept and gains wider perspective on karate and martial arts in general. So for Shotokan that means letting go of the outwardly rooted appearance, while retaining the rooted principles. Letting go of the appearance of strength (if necessary), while retaining the ability to strike powerfully from a softer appearing technique, when apropos. Getting out of the paradigm of straight, direct moves, while having internalized the advantages of an overwhelming, penetrating strike or block.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1348802238' post='2487494']
So the modern conception of yoga is that it's about as Hindu as the Olive Garden is Italian? Other than reducing another religion's practice to exercise so our buns and thighs are really toned and we look really hot, I don't think going to a yoga class at some gym is all that spiritually dangerous because it's not even "real" yoga.

Eating at the Olive Garden is more dangerous. Ever look at the nutrition facts? Scary stuff.
[/quote]Exactly! I just don't see any spirituality in the Yoga shown on WII Fit. But a bunch of hot women in Yoga pantaloons...

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1348807313' post='2487509']
Well, like others have mentioned, doing the stretches themselves aren't bad. I'm not sinning when I stand on one foot in a yoga pose to help improve my balance. But that's also not true yoga, as true yoga involves the meditation too. It's dangerous because if you're not careful, lots of people can get hooked on the spiritual side REALLY easily, which is why it's generally not recommended at all, even just as stretches.

Plus why do yoga when you can do pilates? You get a lot of similar stretches, without any of the spiritual stuff. And that's also why the priest in the article was originally okay with the arrangement when it was just pilates. Some of the pilates moves come from yoga, but there is no spiritual connection to it, so it's fine.
[/quote]i honestly think at least some "yoga" classes used the name "yoga" to make it sound cooler than "stretching". They could easily rename the yoga section on the WiiFit to Pilates or stretches, honestly.

[Selah]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1348802238' post='2487494']
So the modern conception of yoga is that it's about as Hindu as the Olive Garden is Italian? Other than reducing another religion's practice to exercise so our buns and thighs are really toned and we look really hot, I don't think going to a yoga class at some gym is all that spiritually dangerous because it's not even "real" yoga.

Eating at the Olive Garden is more dangerous. Ever look at the nutrition facts? Scary stuff.
[/quote]


Unfortunatly, it has been westernized and stripped of what it used to be. Postures exist in Hesychasm, a form of prayer in Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism. I am sure if someone were to take those postures and use them to "tone their butts and thighs" countless Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholics would be a little more than offended by it.


Raja Yoga requires other practices, such as vegetarianism and obtaining a guru. Yet I don't think many would be willing to do such things. In all honesty, I think people hang onto Yoga asanas as an exercise because it "sounds exotic." Pilates isn't as exotic sounding as Yoga is.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1348811221' post='2487521']
If you say Taekwondo I will be allowed by God to shoot you, unless of course He gets you first. Taekwondo isn't karate, it's Taekwondo. Though I am sure you already know that and practice something else.
[/quote]

I used to take Tae Kwon Do classes since that is the only form of martial arts offers in my hometown. Why does it get such a bad reputation on here?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1349127589' post='2488923']

I used to take Tae Kwon Do classes since that is the only form of martial arts offers in my hometown. Why does it get such a bad reputation on here?
[/quote]
Within the martial arts world, a lot of people who consider themselves 'serious' will look down on TKD. They consider it to be rather fluffy, compared to most other martial arts.

It is not an entirely unfair characterization, however I do not subscribe to it unreservedly.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1348954446' post='2488175']

In all honesty, I think people hang onto Yoga asanas as an exercise because it "sounds exotic." Pilates isn't as exotic sounding as Yoga is.
[/quote]

For whatever reason, Western culture is fascinated by exotic sounding Eastern practices like Feng Shui. Or as cool as Star Wars is, it's the aspect of "The Force" or The Matrix...

[url="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0936894/"][b]Spoon boy[/b][/url]: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
[b][url="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000206/"]Neo[/url][/b]: What truth?
[b][url="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0936894/"]Spoon boy[/url][/b]: There is no spoon.
[b][url="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000206/"]Neo[/url][/b]: There is no spoon?
[b][url="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0936894/"]Spoon boy[/url][/b]: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1349128237' post='2488928']

For whatever reason, Western culture is fascinated by exotic sounding Eastern practices like Feng Shui. Or as cool as Star Wars is, it's the aspect of "The Force" or The Matrix...

[url="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0936894/"][b]Spoon boy[/b][/url]: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
[b][url="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000206/"]Neo[/url][/b]: What truth?
[b][url="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0936894/"]Spoon boy[/url][/b]: There is no spoon.
[b][url="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000206/"]Neo[/url][/b]: There is no spoon?
[b][url="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0936894/"]Spoon boy[/url][/b]: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.
[/quote]


Although that was true, in the context of the Matrix.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1349127882' post='2488926']
Within the martial arts world, a lot of people who consider themselves 'serious' will look down on TKD. They consider it to be rather fluffy, compared to most other martial arts.

It is not an entirely unfair characterization, however I do not subscribe to it unreservedly.
[/quote]

That adds a whole new dimension to my avatar and quote in relation to Despicable Me, doesn't it?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1348818651' post='2487544']
Shotokan is pretty cool. Lately I am rather more interested in doing some cross training in something with a more distinctly Okinawan flavour, for instance Goku-ryu, but I have not had the opportunity, and may not for several years. Since I have moved into the dan levels I have become less and less preoccupied with the particular style I am practicing, and more concerned with my pet theory that all styles can essentially be found within each other, to a greater or lesser degree, and it is simply a matter of emphasizing or reinterpreting certain key techniques and stances. To that end, whenever I have the opportunity I have been learning kata that are typical of styles besides Shotokan, especially those which are distinctively not Shotokan, and trying to integrate their characteristics into the Shotokan techniques I already practice day to day.
[/quote]


I just wanted to fix this post for the sake of accuracy. Supposed to say "Goju-ryu", not "Goku-ryu". That is what I get for posting so late in the day. Or rather, early in the morning.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1349128505' post='2488930']

That adds a whole new dimension to my avatar and quote in relation to Despicable Me, doesn't it?
[/quote]


Lol, I guess it does.

If you wanted to draw that analogy, if we compare the martial arts world with Christianity, karate as it is typically practiced today is perhaps 'post-VII Catholic' or rather traditional Anglicanism, whereas TKD would be a kind of more broad-church Protestantism, or a very hip form of Evangelicalism.
Okinawan karate and traditional kung-fu would be Catholicism and Orthodoxy, and we could take the two more or less interchangeably in terms of the metaphor. Perhaps the SSPX is Kyokushin karate. Heh.

It is a pretty limited metaphor though, because there is really no such thing as one right way to do martial arts. So try not to read into that too much. The more I think about it, the less I appreciate the metaphor's descriptive potential.