Era Might Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Don't quote me, but didn't Orwell become disillusioned with socialism later on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 [quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1348698507' post='2487068'] Don't quote me, but didn't Orwell become disillusioned with socialism later on? [/quote] WHAT NOW??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 (edited) Orwell is popularly chiefly known for his novel [i]1984[/i], which contained quite a few prescient observations about totalitarian statism, and the use of twisting of language and other methods to control the thought of the populace, whatever idiocy he might have believed regarding "Democratic Socialism." Describing something as "Orwellian" or referring to "Newspeak" need not be seen as a ringing endorsement of everything Orwell believed in. Just as saying something is "straight out of a novel by [fill-in-the-blank-author]" does not mean one agrees with everything that particular author believes. And one can agree with or admire a person's observations on one thing without agreeing with his opinions on another. I'd think even a Hasan would be able to realize this. Edited September 26, 2012 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1348698703' post='2487069'] WHAT NOW??? [/quote] I'm probably wrong, or else maybe it was disillusionment with Russia rather than Socialism. I don't remember. Edited September 27, 2012 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 [quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1348705365' post='2487098'] I'm probably wrong, or else maybe it was disillusionment with Russia rather than Socialism. I don't remember. [/quote] You missed the joke. I quoted you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1348705752' post='2487105'] You missed the joke. I quoted you. [/quote] Did you know that [color=#000000][font=Arial][size=1]76.6 per cent of Canadians live in cities and towns while 23.4 per cent live in rural areas.[/size][/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1348705752' post='2487105'] You missed the joke. I quoted you. [/quote] Did you know that [color=#000000][font=Arial][size=1]76.6 per cent of Canadians live in cities and towns while 23.4 per cent live in rural areas?[/size][/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1348689753' post='2487022'] Left socialism (which is lower case democratic socialism) has always advocated the abolition of the state. Democratic Socialists (the political parties) tend to be left socialists in their normative outlook but accept the use of the Democratic Socialist party to make the state and capitalism more humane while they work towards the ultimate abolition of the state and capitalism. [/quote] You can't abolish the state and abolish property. The 'property is theft' crowd is deranged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 [quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1348706498' post='2487112'] Did you know that [color=#000000][font=Arial][size=1]76.6 per cent of Canadians live in cities and towns while 23.4 per cent live in rural areas.[/size][/font][/color] [/quote] Well I do know that I live in the city. Also my family lives in the city. Based on my data I am forced to extrapolate that 100% of Canadians live in cities, while 0% live in rural areas. I will have to see some hard evidence to back up your rather extraordinary claims to the contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1348706766' post='2487114'] You can't abolish the state and abolish property. The 'property is theft' crowd is deranged. [/quote] Property, in the expanded sense that exists in the modern capitalist system, has no meaning absent a state. Property in the broad sense is absolutely dependent on a state. Which is one reason why anarchism has been an almost universally socialist (in the broad sense) movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1348703107' post='2487086'] Orwell is popularly chiefly known for his novel [i]1984[/i], which contained quite a few prescient observations about totalitarian statism, and the use of twisting of language and other methods to control the thought of the populace, whatever idiocy he might have believed regarding "Democratic Socialism." Describing something as "Orwellian" or referring to "Newspeak" need not be seen as a ringing endorsement of everything Orwell believed in. Just as saying something is "straight out of a novel by [fill-in-the-blank-author]" does not mean one agrees with everything that particular author believes. And one can agree with or admire a person's observations on one thing without agreeing with his opinions on another. I'd think even a Hasan would be able to realize this. [/quote] No poo. the reason that I find it grating is because I often see here, and in real life, the labeling of an individual as a 'socialist' being a means of automatically discrediting him and treating anything he may say as fruit of the poison tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1348707858' post='2487120'] Property, in the expanded sense that exists in the modern capitalist system, has no meaning absent a state. Property in the broad sense is absolutely dependent on a state. Which is one reason why anarchism has been an almost universally socialist (in the broad sense) movement. [/quote] Property exists prior to the state. It does not require a state to have a greater claim on an object than anyone else. By modern capitalist system, you mean corporatism, which relies on the violation of property rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1348764641' post='2487255'] Property exists prior to the state. It does not require a state to have a greater claim on an object than anyone else. By modern capitalist system, you mean corporatism, which relies on the violation of property rights. [/quote] An object also exists prior to anyone's claim on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1348764641' post='2487255'] Property exists prior to the state.[/QUOTE] What is property? [QUOTE]It does not require a state to have a greater claim on an object than anyone else.[/QUOTE] Ok. Who says that you get to utilize natural resources? What gives you any claim to take some of the common enviorment and appropriate it to your personal use? [QUOTE]By modern capitalist system, you mean corporatism, which relies on the violation of property rights. [/quote] No. I mean capitalism. Capitalism is different from a mere free market. It's a particular economic system which emerged in the Europe along side the modern European state (by pure coincidence, I'm sure) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 [quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1348764880' post='2487256'] An object also exists prior to anyone's claim on it. [/quote] Right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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