To: All Those Who Think They May Have A Carmelite Vocation.

[AccountDeleted]

I don't have time tonight to answer the questions of the OP in depth but I would like to remind everyone that every community of Carmelite nuns is indivudal and unique. Each Prioress is a Major Superior and each community is completely autonomous, so although the historical customs and traditions may be similar (especially those started by the same foundress, as many in the UK have been), no one of them is exactly the same as another. This gives each one a completely different 'feel' as one would feel with different families. Some families may share cultural traditions and customs, but their own personal expression of these is going to be unique. This does not make one Carmel more 'right' than another or more 'faithful' or even more 'traditional'. The differences between the 1990 and 1991 Constitutions are entirely external and neither 'better' or 'worse' than another as they are all trying to live our the charism of Our Holy Mother St Teresa.

God gave us abilities and affinities to use in His service, and some of us might be able to express those best in one type of environment, while others would do better in another.I am one of those people who took a long time to find the where God wanted me, trying both the 1990 and the 1991 Carmels, and my home turned out to be the first Carmel I entered. We can't ever be 100% sure of our choices but all we can do is to persevere to the best of our individual abilities and to trust in God for the rest. St Therese's sister, Leonie had many heartbreaking attempts at entering religious life before she finally settled down at the Visitation. What we consider failure, God simply sees as our loving efforts to please Him. And He is well pleased by that.

Edited September 26, 2012 by nunsense

[emmaberry]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1348685168' post='2486992']
Thank you Veni for your thorough answer. I really do appreciate it.

Also Laudem Gloriam, thank you for your blog and the postulant posts. This is a big wake up for me. I did not know all of this about Carmel (1990s) Particularly this part:

They do this in prisons because they do not TRUST the prisioner. Period. They also do this in mental hospitals. You have to "earn" back your "priviledges." They treat you like a child. Perhaps rightly so, because the prisoner has presumably broken the law. However, I don't understand why one has to be treated like a child in a monastery. I had heard that this use to go on in monasteries prior to Vatican II and the reforms. It did go on in a monastery I stayed at in France back in 2008. I didn't like it then and I still don't.

This is clearly not the life for me. No point in me even wasting my time or any Carmel that is this strict (1990s). As St. Teresa stated, "self knowledge" is very imporant and I have enough self-knowlege to know that I would never make is as one her Carmelites.

I wish everyone well that is discerning Carmel but it is clearly not my life. I sincerely thank all of you and VS. It is a tremendous resource for learning.
[/quote][quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1348685168' post='2486992']
Thank you Veni for your thorough answer. I really do appreciate it.

Also Laudem Gloriam, thank you for your blog and the postulant posts. This is a big wake up for me. I did not know all of this about Carmel (1990s) Particularly this part:

They do this in prisons because they do not TRUST the prisioner. Period. They also do this in mental hospitals. You have to "earn" back your "priviledges." They treat you like a child. Perhaps rightly so, because the prisoner has presumably broken the law. However, I don't understand why one has to be treated like a child in a monastery. I had heard that this use to go on in monasteries prior to Vatican II and the reforms. It did go on in a monastery I stayed at in France back in 2008. I didn't like it then and I still don't.

This is clearly not the life for me. No point in me even wasting my time or any Carmel that is this strict (1990s). As St. Teresa stated, "self knowledge" is very imporant and I have enough self-knowlege to know that I would never make is as one her Carmelites.

I wish everyone well that is discerning Carmel but it is clearly not my life. I sincerely thank all of you and VS. It is a tremendous resource for learning.
[/quote]

Keep in mind that there are definitely communities/orders who do not practice this, and I am sure you could find a Carmel where the Prioress does not read mail.. this would probably be a 1991 Carmel.

In A Right to Be Merry, Mother Francis speaks of the religious life's aim for perfection. Much like an athlete who considers it his privilege to have superiors in his sport guide and coach him to perfection, nuns count it a great thing to be held accountable in all things to their Mother Superior. In short, I want my mail read when I am in the convent. I want someone listening when I am speaking with family in the parlor. I am not entering to write what I wish or hold onto my own privacies, but to entrust to Mother Abbess and Dear Mistress the privilege of guiding me in a life of perfection however they see fit.

Your question was a very good one to ask though. If these things do not appeal to you, it is better you know that now than when you are in the cloister having your mail read by the Prioress! Like I said, this doesn't mean Carmel's not for you, bit I would encourage you to look at it in a positive light of free will and choosing, rather than comparing it to a prisoner-actually, the contemplative often lovingly calls herself a 'little prisoner of Jesus!' So many things in the llife can be compared to a prison: the cell, the hard labor, the reduced sleep, the set diet/fasting, the uniform (habit), the grill/bars...except the contemplative chooses them freely and is all the merrier for it.

Will be praying for your discernment!

[Antoniette]

Truthfully, I always encourage all to at least see and discern with Brooklyn-I'm there often for devotions.
Then, Buffalo is great too, as is Phily with Mother Barbara,
Dallas wonderful leadership lots of younger nuns nice balance
Then in England, everyone knows I'mpartial to St. Helens, my friend is there and the prioress and subprioress are two of the greatest nuns I've met.

These are suggestions God will call you to the right home even after all this it is not a Carmel


Antoniette

[inperpetuity]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348673783' post='2486908']
Thats a good question ACS67.

I don't mind sharing at all. I know personal opinions about someone who had to leave and still discerned with the same Order wouldn't change Our Lord's mind if He still had a place for them there. My situation might help others too.

I didn't leave the monastery of my own choosing; I was sent away for reasons that I understand but don't understand why those things happend. But I know that in order to heal I can't dwell on those things that I can't and couldn't change because it was beyond my control for whatever reasons. I didn't want to leave. Its been 6 months since I've been gone (I was there for almost a year and a half.) Though now being away I see some things that I didn't see before; about being there and most importantly about myself. I won't get into my past, but lets just say that I entered with wounds that needed healing that made certain aspects of the life difficult. Its an interesting thing, but in the silence and solitude of the cloister everything about yourself comes out, and you will not be able to hide anything. Sometimes you didn't even know those things were a part of you but that's part of self-knowledge and humility.

When I was sent away and came back with my parents it was a very difficult and painful time for us. I say us because my parents were just so sorry for me. The first few months were the most difficult, but thankfully someone very kind and helpful got me in contact with a priest who is very familiar with the Carmelite life and spirituality. Before this I was in a state of great confusion about what was happening, but after I opened up to this Father about my past and my time at the monastery, he was very encouraging and reassuring about my Vocation to Carmel. This put me at ease and cleared up a lot of trials and temptations. I am still so very thankful for that person who got me in contact with him. It just so happend that this Father who is helping me, was a priest that came to the monastery a few times to visit the community I was with at the time I was there. I remember he gave me this qoute, [i]"The sins that we hide always reappear. To hide one’s sins well, one must confess them well”[/i] St. Jean Marie Vianney. He gave me this before I even opened up to him about anything, especially the difficult things to talk about.

The cloister is certainly not the place to be to be able to heal; it just won't happen. I was always trying to get away from things and had so many distractions and once you enter the monastery you don't have that anymore; your faced with yourself. Because I didn't have the help and direction I needed to prepare myself for living this life I didn't even have a real understanding of what giving myself was. I had a very exterior view of giving myself (poverty, chastity, and obedience.) My intentions were good and my heart was in the right place, but I didn't give much attention to the poverty, chastity, and obedience that one is to have in their heart and this didn't help with the "baggage" that I brought with me.

Father has given me such great advise and help and he has had the experience many times of helping women that have entered and left because of my type of situation and has helped them prepare to be able to live this kind of life. I think this is why I have been saying so much on here how important it is to have help and direction before one enters. Our Lord works through others to help us, and we can't do everything on our own. My experience has taught me trust and surrender because I see there is so much that I am not able to control, but Our Lord wants to do it for me. It seems so simple right? It should be, but I don't know why for us creatures that its so difficult to let go. Our Blessed Mother is the perfect example with Her virtues and childlikeness. I can't heal and grow on my own; I need His grace and His mercy. So I am hopeful that in time (His time, not mine) that I will be ready with His grace to give myself completely to Him in this way of life. I can't force His grace to come more quickly, but while waiting for His time I hope that I will be patient and trusting. We don't always see the good Our Lord makes out of painful circumstances, but He has made this very clear to see that through this cross I am acquiring virtues that I need so much, especially for this Vocation, and because of the situation at the monastery I couldn't have acquired them there.

(Also to add, I have heard it many times that when you are called to Carmel, even though the life and traditions could be completely the same at more than one monastery, it is to a particular community and monastery that He has chosen for you.)
[/quote]

Thank you for this very humble explanation VeniJesu. Ok, this was also my experience in every way except I left on my own. They probably would've asked me to leave eventually if I didn't. 13 years have passed and I was also blessed to come into contact with a priest who was able to help me to grow in the areas I most needed it particularly the virtues. I still have a long way to go, but I think I have finally gotten to the point that I would be able to persevere in the right community, meaning the one God wanted me in.

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

I have a question (although maybe the answer would come best from those who are already in their monastery home) but I'm sure there are many around here who would have helpful advise.

I don't think (though anything could happen) that I will be visiting a community anytime soon. I do however think of the time when I will start contacting again and going for a visit when the time comes. I was thinking back to my past community and how I went there and though I wasn't one of those who received a very clear sign that this was where I was supposed to enter, but I did enjoy my time there while visiting and believed that this is where I could be to love and give myself to Our Lord. My question is, what would be things to look for? I hear from others that have found their place that they experienced a very strong peace and/or joy when they were there and just knew that it was home. Is that then common?

This is something when the time came that I would bring up with my director, but lately I have been thinking much about how I would soon enough love to find my place. I'm grateful for all advise, and prayers!

[emmaberry]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348770023' post='2487304']
I have a question (although maybe the answer would come best from those who are already in their monastery home) but I'm sure there are many around here who would have helpful advise.

I don't think (though anything could happen) that I will be visiting a community anytime soon. I do however think of the time when I will start contacting again and going for a visit when the time comes. I was thinking back to my past community and how I went there and though I wasn't one of those who received a very clear sign that this was where I was supposed to enter, but I did enjoy my time there while visiting and believed that this is where I could be to love and give myself to Our Lord. My question is, what would be things to look for? I hear from others that have found their place that they experienced a very strong peace and/or joy when they were there and just knew that it was home. Is that then common?

This is something when the time came that I would bring up with my director, but lately I have been thinking much about how I would soon enough love to find my place. I'm grateful for all advise, and prayers!
[/quote]

Everybody experiences this peace differently, but if you feel called to the cloister, I would think the peace would be very strong, considering that, if its the place you are called, your future life and Sisters are all bundled up in those four walls on the Monastery!

When I visited my Sisters (Roswell PCCs) I had them pegged as 'the beginning of my discernment visits', nothing more. So as I was driving up to Roswell, I felt really nonchalant -almost careless- about the whole thing. The Poor Clares of Roswell were pretty insignificant to me at that point, and the only reason I wrote them was because my friend was writing them, and we thought it would be cool to visit together (she is now discerning the Fr Srs of the Renewal!) Then I turned into the driveway.

It didn't feel like I was 'coming home', per se, but I was hit by the impression that 'this place is going to be very significant for me' which was a crazy thought since the whole visit was very insignificant to me up to that point. I even told Mother Abbess on that initial visit that this was just supposed to be a stop on the road, and now that it was [i]it,[/i] that really terrified me.

One thing I experienced that may help you is that I was not like, "WOW! I love this Monastery-it's so beautiful! And the Sisters are wonderful. I think I want to/am called to live here!" Nope. I was not even that attracted to the exterior of the Monastery. It was quaint, and I had always pictures myself living somewhere more like Mother Angelica's community in AL, with the beautiful shrine and everything. Let's just say, I was not thinking that I'd like to be called to Franciscan poverty! (Yes, I know the PCPA's are Franciscan!) Just the opposite. God's funny that way. I even read A Right to Be Merry last April (my mom gave it to me) and thought, "Okay, I understand why they live that way..but it's still not for me" and all thoughts of Poor Clare life fled my mind. Going back to my mom giving me ARTBM-if your parents are at all supportive, ask them what they think. I believe my mom knew I was called to the Poor Clares before I did-she gave me that book, urged me to read it, then didn't sound surprised when I called from the Monastery on my first day and told her that it was the place. Moms know us best.

In short, the Monastery did not attract me. The Sisters are wonderful, but in the same way, they did not attract me and make me anxiously await the day I could apply. Neither was it Mother Abbess, who is very dear to me already. It was that God had revealed His Will that this was my place, and that was all I needed to jump in. After that, everything was attractive, and now I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

So approach even the most unlikely Monastery as a possibility-don't 'write anything off' as just a stop along the way, because God, funny as He is, will have way too much fun telling you that it is the place for you! Also, put a lot of trust in the Holy Spirit. I was researching orders for hours every day, and spending that much time in daily adoration as well. It was to the point where I was almost trying to coerce Jesus into telling me where He wanted me. "Jesus, look how often I am in adoration. Look how much research I've done! Don't you think it's time you just let me know where I'm supposed to be." Like I said, I never would have visited my Sisters on my own-I didn't even do it for the best reason, and He still used it. "We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose[font=arial][color=#008061][b].[/b][/color][/font]" "Seek and you will find," He says. If you are really seeking, even if, like me, you are going about it the wrong way, He will show you in His time. If you visit your Monastery, He will show you that it's your place.

Many prayers for you.

Edited September 27, 2012 by emmaberry

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

God reward you for your post in response to the question, Emmaberry.

It was very helpful. I found it interesting about what you said about asking the parents what they think. My parents are very supportive, and they aren't Catholic but parents who love their children want them to do what will make them happy and they have stated that they know there is something in me that has them to believe also that I need to pursue what is in my heart. It is really something when they don't know much about the faith or even about this vocation, but through the grace of God they see this in me.

I have a monastery in mind that I would like to contact in time. This step will take one of great faith and trust for me because of my situation and also because the community I was with is very close to this community that I am interested in. I trust with my heart though that if this is where He wants me that it will happen despite any obstacles. Its all for Him and I'm thankful for the trust that He has placed within me that in His time and way He will get me where He wants me. May He be forever praised.

I'm thankful for your prayers also! I will keep you in mine as well.

[inperpetuity]

"In short, the Monastery did not attract me. The Sisters are wonderful, but in the same way, they did not attract me and make me anxiously await the day I could apply. Neither was it Mother Abbess, who is very dear to me already. It was that God had revealed His Will that this was my place, and that was all I needed to jump in. After that, everything was attractive, and now I wouldn't want to live anywhere else"

Thanks for posting your experience emmab, it is very helpful. It reminds me of what St. Teresa of the Andes said to her sd when she said she had no attraction to her Carmel and that she was going there with her will and only God to support her.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1348772823' post='2487333']
Everybody experiences this peace differently, but if you feel called to the cloister, I would think the peace would be very strong, considering that, if its the place you are called, your future life and Sisters are all bundled up in those four walls on the Monastery!

When I visited my Sisters (Roswell PCCs) I had them pegged as 'the beginning of my discernment visits', nothing more. So as I was driving up to Roswell, I felt really nonchalant -almost careless- about the whole thing. The Poor Clares of Roswell were pretty insignificant to me at that point, and the only reason I wrote them was because my friend was writing them, and we thought it would be cool to visit together (she is now discerning the Fr Srs of the Renewal!) Then I turned into the driveway.

It didn't feel like I was 'coming home', per se, but I was hit by the impression that 'this place is going to be very significant for me' which was a crazy thought since the whole visit was very insignificant to me up to that point. I even told Mother Abbess on that initial visit that this was just supposed to be a stop on the road, and now that it was [i]it,[/i] that really terrified me.

One thing I experienced that may help you is that I was not like, "WOW! I love this Monastery-it's so beautiful! And the Sisters are wonderful. I think I want to/am called to live here!" Nope. I was not even that attracted to the exterior of the Monastery. It was quaint, and I had always pictures myself living somewhere more like Mother Angelica's community in AL, with the beautiful shrine and everything. Let's just say, I was not thinking that I'd like to be called to Franciscan poverty! (Yes, I know the PCPA's are Franciscan!) Just the opposite. God's funny that way. I even read A Right to Be Merry last April (my mom gave it to me) and thought, "Okay, I understand why they live that way..but it's still not for me" and all thoughts of Poor Clare life fled my mind. Going back to my mom giving me ARTBM-if your parents are at all supportive, ask them what they think. I believe my mom knew I was called to the Poor Clares before I did-she gave me that book, urged me to read it, then didn't sound surprised when I called from the Monastery on my first day and told her that it was the place. Moms know us best.

[b]In short, the Monastery did not attract me. The Sisters are wonderful, but in the same way, they did not attract me and make me anxiously await the day I could apply. Neither was it Mother Abbess, who is very dear to me already. It was that God had revealed His Will that this was my place, and that was all I needed to jump in. After that, everything was attractive, and now I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.[/b]

So approach even the most unlikely Monastery as a possibility-don't 'write anything off' as just a stop along the way, because God, funny as He is, will have way too much fun telling you that it is the place for you! Also, put a lot of trust in the Holy Spirit. I was researching orders for hours every day, and spending that much time in daily adoration as well. It was to the point where I was almost trying to coerce Jesus into telling me where He wanted me. "Jesus, look how often I am in adoration. Look how much research I've done! Don't you think it's time you just let me know where I'm supposed to be." Like I said, I never would have visited my Sisters on my own-I didn't even do it for the best reason, and He still used it. "We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose[font=arial][color=#008061][b].[/b][/color][/font]" "Seek and you will find," He says. If you are really seeking, even if, like me, you are going about it the wrong way, He will show you in His time. If you visit your Monastery, He will show you that it's your place.

Many prayers for you.
[/quote]

[font=georgia,serif][b]This is very beautiful[/b][i]. [/i]I often thought I would never be attracted to a missionary vocation. I kept writing it off because the idea of leaving the country for formation or working in the apostolate scared the poo out of me. To be honest, it still does, but being with my Sisters helps me realize that God will help me work through my fear. Things in me have changed, too, because I understand much better that being called to the convent doesn't mean that you will get along with all the Sisters or that they will be your best friends. When I met one of the Sisters about 2 weeks ago, our meeting was very awkward. One of the other Sisters who I keep in contact with on Facebook forgot to tell the visiting Sister that I would be there and probably would seek them out. The Sister who was visiting was lovely but had no knowledge of who I was or that I was in the application process -- and I didn't expect her to. Even though we had an awkward meeting, I still feel called to pursue this community. In the past, this would have caused doubts but no longer. I'm going there to pursue God's will -- not make friends. If I happen to make friends along the way, all the better! But that's not what being a religious is all about. [/font]

[font=georgia,serif]Emma, thank you for your insight! [/font]

[emmaberry101]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348843766' post='2487585']
It was very helpful. I found it interesting about what you said about asking the parents what they think. My parents are very supportive, and they aren't Catholic but parents who love their children want them to do what will make them happy and they have stated that they know there is something in me that has them to believe also that I need to pursue what is in my heart. It is really something when they don't know much about the faith or even about this vocation, but through the grace of God they see this in me.

I have a monastery in mind that I would like to contact in time. This step will take one of great faith and trust for me because of my situation and also because the community I was with is very close to this community that I am interested in. I trust with my heart though that if this is where He wants me that it will happen despite any obstacles. Its all for Him and I'm thankful for the trust that He has placed within me that in His time and way He will get me where He wants me. May He be forever praised.

I'm thankful for your prayers also! I will keep you in mine as well.
[/quote]

Thank you for your kind offer of prayers VeniJesu. You are so blessed to have encouraging parents-and them not being Catholic but still supportive? Unheard of! I would definitely tune into what they say. Also, keep trusting God about the Monastery you are looking into. You don't need to do [i]nothing[/i], but if that is your place, the Holy Spirit will work through your life and nudge you towards it! The poor Holy Spirit gets neglected sometimes, especially by me. The Spirit is so powerful and just waiting to do remarkable things in our lives... We really should pray more for His involvement with our discernment!

[quote name='inperpetuity' timestamp='1348890412' post='2487875']
It reminds me of what St. Teresa of the Andes said to her sd when she said she had no attraction to her Carmel and that she was going there with her will and only God to support her.
[/quote]

I had not heard that quote of hers! Everything she says is inspiring-I suppose that's why 'St.' is before her name!

Lately, I have been feeling less attraction to the life, and less consolation than I was receiving in the initial stages of my discernment. Your quote by St. teresa of the Andes has comforted me a lot. The more I think about it, the more it seems like a blessing to have little or no consolation before entering.. It is almost like God is giving you a way to enter for the right reasons alone, so He can work through us and bless us even more! He is so good to us.

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1348891244' post='2487879']

[font=georgia,serif][b]This is very beautiful[/b][i]. [/i]I often thought I would never be attracted to a missionary vocation. I kept writing it off because the idea of leaving the country for formation or working in the apostolate scared the poo out of me. To be honest, it still does, but being with my Sisters helps me realize that God will help me work through my fear. Things in me have changed, too, because I understand much better that being called to the convent doesn't mean that you will get along with all the Sisters or that they will be your best friends. When I met one of the Sisters about 2 weeks ago, our meeting was very awkward. One of the other Sisters who I keep in contact with on Facebook forgot to tell the visiting Sister that I would be there and probably would seek them out. The Sister who was visiting was lovely but had no knowledge of who I was or that I was in the application process -- and I didn't expect her to. Even though we had an awkward meeting, I still feel called to pursue this community. In the past, this would have caused doubts but no longer. I'm going there to pursue God's will -- not make friends. If I happen to make friends along the way, all the better! But that's not what being a religious is all about. [/font]
[/quote]

I find your story so inspiring Mater! Like you, I instinctively shy away from everything the life of a missionary entails. it is wonderful to see you pursuing God's Will even where it's not comfortable for you at all. Every time I feel darkness or desolation, I just think of how much more pleased God is with us when we trek on in darkness compared to when we skip along in times of deep consolation. How pleased God must be with you for going against your initial 'feeling,' even if it is not your particular call (btw-hope you hear from your Sisters very soon!) He must be so happy with you in this situation-especially with your patience! Mine would have run out ages ago.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='emmaberry101' timestamp='1348985268' post='2488354']
I find your story so inspiring Mater! Like you, I instinctively shy away from everything the life of a missionary entails. it is wonderful to see you pursuing God's Will even where it's not comfortable for you at all. Every time I feel darkness or desolation, I just think of how much more pleased God is with us when we trek on in darkness compared to when we skip along in times of deep consolation. How pleased God must be with you for going against your initial 'feeling,' even if it is not your particular call (btw-hope you hear from your Sisters very soon!) He must be so happy with you in this situation-especially with your patience! Mine would have run out ages ago.
[/quote]

The strangest thing was how none of those familiar fearful feelings showed themselves when I was introduced to the Sisters. I remember telling my mom several weeks ago that I was really surprised, but also happy, that none of this had caused any doubts. If you had asked me when I first started discerning if I was considering a missionary vocation, I would have laughed in your face! This is what makes me sure that I am ready to pursue religious life -- that something can become so insignificant when you are serving the Lord! All my preconceived notions of where I was going to end up have been stripped away. It doesn't matter where I serve as long as I am there to serve God and be my "best self."