To: All Those Who Think They May Have A Carmelite Vocation.

[Marian]

I really would like to be able to ask somethings... about what constitute to a real call to carmel. ,, thoughts as one discerns.... things like that. I think it would be nice to gather and talk in this forum as support group. Because there are so many orders and different kinds (active, semi contemplative, cloistered, hermit etc)


My first question is.. How does one feels or what are the defining factor of knowing that one is called to carmel.. and specifically as a nun?

I have been to buffalo 10 years ago and I agree with one of the people who posted here that it was truly a wonderful place. My friend and i visited from Philly. We actually took the train..lol.. we left our houses around 5am and arrived at buffalo at around 9pm ...In other word we did it the old fashioned way.. But I will never forget my talk with Mother Miriam and their extern Sister... And yes that other sister who was on her way that time to established a monastery in brooklyn. I was asked if I want to go there.. I was a bit animated that time i guess as I was really impressed with the buffalo monastery that I had to hold myself from saying no..lol..I was more inclined to be an extern at that time.. right now I am considering the one in indiana, South dakota and erie.. There is one here in philadelphia but I was hoping for one that follows a 1990 constitution. I also have a friend who entered the one in Valparaiso, NE and another at Elysburg, PA. I was looking at the one from UK sheffield? But I am a little leery as it is too far and if one is accepted there, what does one do? does one have to apply for a visa or have to wait for years? I dont know how to go about that.. lol If anyone has any idea of a good carmelite order in USA please let me know.. ideally is there one in a warmer place?

[emmaberry]

Welcome to PM Marian! I discerned Carmel at the beginning of my discernment, but there are so many people here who have a wealth of knowledge on Carmel that I will leave your questions to them.

How beautiful that you have friends in two very good Carmels! It is a wonderful vocation.

[Julie de Sales]

I want to take advantage of the opportunity and recommand a web-site about St Therese of Lisieux, it is VERY good and comes in two versions (french and english, but the english one is only 25% completed). It has all of her photos, writings (diary, letters, last conversations) and the life of the nuns she lived with. I like it a lot and maybe it will help some discerners. [url="http://www.archives-carmel-lisieux.fr/english/carmel/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2124&Itemid=101"]http://www.archives-...2124&Itemid=101[/url]

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

Praised be Jesus Christ! Now and forever.

Hello Marian! I will keep you in my prayers. I am also discerning with the Discalced Carmelites. Do you have someone helping you during this time of discernment? A priest of other spiritual director? Our Holy Mother Saint Teresa never did anything without first consulting a priest. Our Lord works best through them. Since I have had the help I need at this point a lot of confusion and anxiety has been cleared up. Its just really great to have this help. I have found that this is very important and most helpful. If you don't have the help you need I hope you will be able to find the one who can help you.

If you were to write to the community that you are interested in Reverend Mother would be happy to contact you and give you all the information you need and also help about the Carmelite vocation. The life is very simple, humble, and just plain beautiful! They are content with having Him and being only His; this is where the true joy comes from; and they are very joyful! The solitude and silence is strict, but the Carmelite is also very interior, as that is where she is with Jesus; in her heart. So she really just longs for all the silence and solitude she can have because she finds Him within herself. The complete giving of yourself, and most especially your will. If you read in the life's of the Carmelite Saints, before they entered the Monastery, they always carried with them the spirit of mortification; always finding a way to deny themselves even in very little things. This is a really good preparation before entering. That brings up another idea; do you have books about the Carmelite saints? You'll find really good advise from them. Two that I have purchased recently were really great; "The Golden Arrow: The Autobiography and Revelations of Sister Mary of St. Peter", and "Letters of Saint Teresa of Jesus of The Andes." There are so many other great ones; but I'm sure you are well aware.

Here is some information about Carmelite Spirituality:

"Carmelite spirituality is characterised by an intense thirst for an immediate and direct experience of God. Reduced to its most fundamental expression, Carmelite spirituality is centred on prayer, understood as loving friendship with God, and contemplation as the free gift of God. Hence, Carmelite spirituality is focused on attention to one’s relationship with Jesus. In the Rule of St. Albert, the Christian character of Carmelite spirituality is clearly expressed as living ‘a life of allegiance to Jesus Christ’. This involves a gradual and progressive conversion and transformation – a putting on of the mind and heart of Jesus. Sts. Teresa and John of the Cross, speak of prayer and contemplation as ‘friendship with God’ and ‘union with God’ respectively. Prayer and contemplation, as a relationship with God, in and through loving friendship with Jesus Christ, is not a technique or one of the many daily activities, but embracing of one’s whole life. For the Carmelite then there is no experience in one’s life that is outside the ambit of relationship with God.

Together with prayer and contemplation, Carmelite spirituality emphasises the doctrine of the Divine Indwelling. Both Sts. Teresa and John of the Cross teach us that God, the Blessed Trinity, dwells within the human person. Hence, one need not go out of self in search for God but enter progressively ever deeper within oneself to be with God who dwells at the very centre of our being. St. Teresa speaks of this journey within as an itinerary through a castle with seven mansions. St. John of the Cross hymns this reality: [b]“What more do you want, O soul! And what else do you search for outside, when within yourself you possess your riches, delights, satisfactions, fullness and kingdom – your Beloved whom you desire and seek? Be joyful and gladdened in your interior recollection with Him, for you have Him so close to you. Desire Him there, adore Him there. Do not go in pursuit of Him outside yourself. You will only become distracted and wearied thereby, and you shall not find Him, or enjoy Him more securely, or sooner, or more intimately than by seeking Him within you.”[/b] (S.C. 1:8) [b]Interiority and recollection, then, are at the very heart of Carmelite spirituality.[/b]

Carmelite spirituality proposes silence and solitude as necessary pre-requisites for prayer and contemplation. Silence refers not only to external noise but also to the stilling of one’s internal noises. Silence is the condition for listening attentively to the still small voice of God. Solitude provides the ambience where one may be alone so as to focus more attentively on the Beloved. Solitude then is not primarily separation or isolation from others, but a place of privileged encounter with the Beloved.

Asceticism is the means of freeing self from the tyranny of self-will, simplifying one’s life, and preserving all of one’s energy for journeying to God. For St. John of the Cross, the main expression of asceticism involves a radical detachment from inordinate or disordered desires and appetites. Detachment is a way of prioritising God above all creatures. As such, it witnesses to the primacy and all sufficiency of God.

Carmelite spirituality teaches that authentic prayer and contemplation is accompanied by and promotes growth in the human and theological virtues. This leads to a flowering in the Carmelite of the two-fold gospel commandment of love of God and love of neighbour."

[ACS67]

Veni, thank you for that quote on Carmelite spirituality. That was wonderful.

[inperpetuity]

Yes, thank you, Veni, that description of Carmel is beautiful.

[Marian]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1348564847' post='2486422']
Welcome to PM Marian! I discerned Carmel at the beginning of my discernment, but there are so many people here who have a wealth of knowledge on Carmel that I will leave your questions to them.

How beautiful that you have friends in two very good Carmels! It is a wonderful vocation.
[/quote]

Yes. I am truly blessed emmaberry

[quote name='Julie de Sales' timestamp='1348574689' post='2486438']
I want to take advantage of the opportunity and recommand a web-site about St Therese of Lisieux, it is VERY good and comes in two versions (french and english, but the english one is only 25% completed). It has all of her photos, writings (diary, letters, last conversations) and the life of the nuns she lived with. I like it a lot and maybe it will help some discerners. [url="http://www.archives-carmel-lisieux.fr/english/carmel/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2124&Itemid=101"]http://www.archives-...2124&Itemid=101[/url]
[/quote]

Thank you for the link Julie

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348596821' post='2486583']
Praised be Jesus Christ! Now and forever.

Hello Marian! I will keep you in my prayers. I am also discerning with the Discalced Carmelites. Do you have someone helping you during this time of discernment? A priest of other spiritual director? Our Holy Mother Saint Teresa never did anything without first consulting a priest. Our Lord works best through them. Since I have had the help I need at this point a lot of confusion and anxiety has been cleared up. Its just really great to have this help. I have found that this is very important and most helpful. If you don't have the help you need I hope you will be able to find the one who can help you.

If you were to write to the community that you are interested in Reverend Mother would be happy to contact you and give you all the information you need and also help about the Carmelite vocation. The life is very simple, humble, and just plain beautiful! They are content with having Him and being only His; this is where the true joy comes from; and they are very joyful! The solitude and silence is strict, but the Carmelite is also very interior, as that is where she is with Jesus; in her heart. So she really just longs for all the silence and solitude she can have because she finds Him within herself. The complete giving of yourself, and most especially your will. If you read in the life's of the Carmelite Saints, before they entered the Monastery, they always carried with them the spirit of mortification; always finding a way to deny themselves even in very little things. This is a really good preparation before entering. That brings up another idea; do you have books about the Carmelite saints? You'll find really good advise from them. Two that I have purchased recently were really great; "The Golden Arrow: The Autobiography and Revelations of Sister Mary of St. Peter", and "Letters of Saint Teresa of Jesus of The Andes." There are so many other great ones; but I'm sure you are well aware.

Here is some information about Carmelite Spirituality:

"Carmelite spirituality is characterised by an intense thirst for an immediate and direct experience of God. Reduced to its most fundamental expression, Carmelite spirituality is centred on prayer, understood as loving friendship with God, and contemplation as the free gift of God. Hence, Carmelite spirituality is focused on attention to one’s relationship with Jesus. In the Rule of St. Albert, the Christian character of Carmelite spirituality is clearly expressed as living ‘a life of allegiance to Jesus Christ’. This involves a gradual and progressive conversion and transformation – a putting on of the mind and heart of Jesus. Sts. Teresa and John of the Cross, speak of prayer and contemplation as ‘friendship with God’ and ‘union with God’ respectively. Prayer and contemplation, as a relationship with God, in and through loving friendship with Jesus Christ, is not a technique or one of the many daily activities, but embracing of one’s whole life. For the Carmelite then there is no experience in one’s life that is outside the ambit of relationship with God.

Together with prayer and contemplation, Carmelite spirituality emphasises the doctrine of the Divine Indwelling. Both Sts. Teresa and John of the Cross teach us that God, the Blessed Trinity, dwells within the human person. Hence, one need not go out of self in search for God but enter progressively ever deeper within oneself to be with God who dwells at the very centre of our being. St. Teresa speaks of this journey within as an itinerary through a castle with seven mansions. St. John of the Cross hymns this reality: [b]“What more do you want, O soul! And what else do you search for outside, when within yourself you possess your riches, delights, satisfactions, fullness and kingdom – your Beloved whom you desire and seek? Be joyful and gladdened in your interior recollection with Him, for you have Him so close to you. Desire Him there, adore Him there. Do not go in pursuit of Him outside yourself. You will only become distracted and wearied thereby, and you shall not find Him, or enjoy Him more securely, or sooner, or more intimately than by seeking Him within you.”[/b] (S.C. 1:8) [b]Interiority and recollection, then, are at the very heart of Carmelite spirituality.[/b]

Carmelite spirituality proposes silence and solitude as necessary pre-requisites for prayer and contemplation. Silence refers not only to external noise but also to the stilling of one’s internal noises. Silence is the condition for listening attentively to the still small voice of God. Solitude provides the ambience where one may be alone so as to focus more attentively on the Beloved. Solitude then is not primarily separation or isolation from others, but a place of privileged encounter with the Beloved.

Asceticism is the means of freeing self from the tyranny of self-will, simplifying one’s life, and preserving all of one’s energy for journeying to God. For St. John of the Cross, the main expression of asceticism involves a radical detachment from inordinate or disordered desires and appetites. Detachment is a way of prioritising God above all creatures. As such, it witnesses to the primacy and all sufficiency of God.

Carmelite spirituality teaches that authentic prayer and contemplation is accompanied by and promotes growth in the human and theological virtues. This leads to a flowering in the Carmelite of the two-fold gospel commandment of love of God and love of neighbour."
[/quote] Thank you for the beautiful quotes..

[Laudem Gloriae]

About Sheffield, Carmel of Kirk Edge, great Carmel! 1990s and I have been accepted there and I live in the US. Of course, this being where my heart is, I am very prejudiced!

For what that Carmel is like, see my blog and the earlier posts on my experience on my visit and a few others who have entered there: start here and go forward for other's experience IN this Carmel and mine visiting. June 20th, 2012 starts here: http://carmelourladysdovecote.wordpress.com/2012/06/20/life-at-kirk-edge-carmel-postulant-as-story/

This blog also has, on the right side margin, links to the Carmel's website, my photo album and pictures from a book of their history they sent me.

As for entering there, the best way is if you have a GRANDPARENT or PARENT who was born in Ireland (for me) or England - and maybe for other countries but I don't know. As my mom was born in Ireland, I was able to get an Irish Passport through descendency. This passport give me citizenship to not only Ireland but ALL of the countries in the European Union and that includes England.

If you can't get a passport this way, Sheffield does sponsor women in through the Visa process.

Message me if you want any more info on Sheffield or the Erie Carmel as I know someone who has visited them and is thinking of entering their.

Erie is a also a fabulous Carmel too. They are 1990s and is a wonderful community. http://www.eriercd.org/carmelites.asp

[Marian]

[quote name='Laudem Gloriae' timestamp='1348628297' post='2486799']
About Sheffield, Carmel of Kirk Edge, great Carmel! 1990s and I have been accepted there and I live in the US. Of course, this being where my heart is, I am very prejudiced!

For what that Carmel is like, see my blog and the earlier posts on my experience on my visit and a few others who have entered there: start here and go forward for other's experience IN this Carmel and mine visiting. June 20th, 2012 starts here: [url="http://carmelourladysdovecote.wordpress.com/2012/06/20/life-at-kirk-edge-carmel-postulant-as-story/"]http://carmelourlady...ulant-as-story/[/url]

This blog also has, on the right side margin, links to the Carmel's website, my photo album and pictures from a book of their history they sent me.

As for entering there, the best way is if you have a GRANDPARENT or PARENT who was born in Ireland (for me) or England - and maybe for other countries but I don't know. As my mom was born in Ireland, I was able to get an Irish Passport through descendency. This passport give me citizenship to not only Ireland but ALL of the countries in the European Union and that includes England.

If you can't get a passport this way, Sheffield does sponsor women in through the Visa process.

Message me if you want any more info on Sheffield or the Erie Carmel as I know someone who has visited them and is thinking of entering their.

Erie is a also a fabulous Carmel too. They are 1990s and is a wonderful community. [url="http://www.eriercd.org/carmelites.asp"]http://www.eriercd.org/carmelites.asp[/url]
[/quote]

Hi i saw your post about your 4 days at philly carmel..lol.. that's how i found this website.. but i thought you lready entered.. i wanted to ask you somethings.. including sheffield.

[Chiquitunga]

VJAM's post says it all!

[quote name='Marian' timestamp='1348548910' post='2486376']..right now I am considering the one in indiana, South dakota and erie.. There is one here in philadelphia but I was hoping for one that follows a 1990 constitution. I also have a friend who entered the one in Valparaiso, NE and another at Elysburg, PA.

If anyone has any idea of a good carmelite order in USA please let me know.. ideally is there one in a warmer place?[/quote]

First, you mentioned one in Indiana .. that must be Terre Haute. They are under the 1991s just to let you know. South Dakota and Erie are 1990.

Dallas (1990) is in a warmer place .. a very warm place!! (and they wear the wool habits year round!)

No, but seriously, this is [u]easier said than done[/u], but I would focus on finding what Carmel [b][i]God[/i][/b] wants you in, rather than searching for things you might personally prefer, like weather (I am guilty of that too though!) Once a Prioress told me someone visited them and told them she was looking for a Carmel that had all the seasons of the year (as in all the temperatures, snow/summer) and that was one of the things that helped them discern that she did not have a true vocation from God. If it is really from God, what we are focusing on is whatever [i]He[/i] wants (edit: though as I have heard it said many times by priests/religious, He works with our desires, so that is not to say to totally disregard anything you might desire, eg like a more traditional community, etc. .. you probably understand what I'm saying )

Edited September 26, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[ACS67]

I have some questions that I have been wanting to ask but they are very hard questions and I don't wish to offend anyone but as I am currently discerning and am much older I feel I need to ask this for my own benefit.

Why do so many seem to enter Carmel, leave Carmel, and then seek Carmel again at a different monastery? It seems to be something that is not uncommon. My spiritual director even spoke of this (although not necessarily in reference to Carmel but other religious orders as well), than many girls/women enter religious life but leave and then seek to enter some place else, almost a "perpetual discerner" type situation.

I ask this because, as I stated, I am much older and I have had the desire to become a nun since I was 19. Perhaps I am just "perpetually discerning." I don't know. I truly don't, but I wish to know because quite honestly at this stage in my life I don't wish to waste my time or the time of those in the religous life. If all I am going to do is stay for 2-3 months then discern out...that's not worth it to me. Again, I'm just being honest. I'm not sure I'm willing to take that risk if there is a real possibility that I am may leave as so many seem to do.

So, to summarize. For those who feel comfortable answering (and I know it is very personal) and have entered Carmel and left, why did you leave? and why are you discerning Carmel again? What makes you think you would stay this time? Again, I don't wish to offend anyone or sound harsh, I'm just inquiring for my own discernment process as your experiences help me look into my own motivations. Thank you.

Edited September 26, 2012 by ACS67

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1348666863' post='2486886']
I have some questions that I have been wanting to ask but they are very hard questions and I don't wish to offend anyone but as I am currently discerning and am much older I feel I need to ask this for my own benefit.

Why do so many seem to enter Carmel, leave Carmel, and then seek Carmel again at a different monastery? [/quote]

Thats a good question ACS67.

I don't mind sharing at all. I know personal opinions about someone who had to leave and still discerned with the same Order wouldn't change Our Lord's mind if He still had a place for them there. My situation might help others too.

I didn't leave the monastery of my own choosing; I was sent away for reasons that I understand but don't understand why those things happend. But I know that in order to heal I can't dwell on those things that I can't and couldn't change because it was beyond my control for whatever reasons. I didn't want to leave. Its been 6 months since I've been gone (I was there for almost a year and a half.) Though now being away I see some things that I didn't see before; about being there and most importantly about myself. I won't get into my past, but lets just say that I entered with wounds that needed healing that made certain aspects of the life difficult. Its an interesting thing, but in the silence and solitude of the cloister everything about yourself comes out, and you will not be able to hide anything. Sometimes you didn't even know those things were a part of you but that's part of self-knowledge and humility.

When I was sent away and came back with my parents it was a very difficult and painful time for us. I say us because my parents were just so sorry for me. The first few months were the most difficult, but thankfully someone very kind and helpful got me in contact with a priest who is very familiar with the Carmelite life and spirituality. Before this I was in a state of great confusion about what was happening, but after I opened up to this Father about my past and my time at the monastery, he was very encouraging and reassuring about my Vocation to Carmel. This put me at ease and cleared up a lot of trials and temptations. I am still so very thankful for that person who got me in contact with him. It just so happend that this Father who is helping me, was a priest that came to the monastery a few times to visit the community I was with at the time I was there. I remember he gave me this qoute, [i]"The sins that we hide always reappear. To hide one’s sins well, one must confess them well”[/i] St. Jean Marie Vianney. He gave me this before I even opened up to him about anything, especially the difficult things to talk about.

The cloister is certainly not the place to be to be able to heal; it just won't happen. I was always trying to get away from things and had so many distractions and once you enter the monastery you don't have that anymore; your faced with yourself. Because I didn't have the help and direction I needed to prepare myself for living this life I didn't even have a real understanding of what giving myself was. I had a very exterior view of giving myself (poverty, chastity, and obedience.) My intentions were good and my heart was in the right place, but I didn't give much attention to the poverty, chastity, and obedience that one is to have in their heart and this didn't help with the "baggage" that I brought with me.

Father has given me such great advise and help and he has had the experience many times of helping women that have entered and left because of my type of situation and has helped them prepare to be able to live this kind of life. I think this is why I have been saying so much on here how important it is to have help and direction before one enters. Our Lord works through others to help us, and we can't do everything on our own. My experience has taught me trust and surrender because I see there is so much that I am not able to control, but Our Lord wants to do it for me. It seems so simple right? It should be, but I don't know why for us creatures that its so difficult to let go. Our Blessed Mother is the perfect example with Her virtues and childlikeness. I can't heal and grow on my own; I need His grace and His mercy. So I am hopeful that in time (His time, not mine) that I will be ready with His grace to give myself completely to Him in this way of life. I can't force His grace to come more quickly, but while waiting for His time I hope that I will be patient and trusting. We don't always see the good Our Lord makes out of painful circumstances, but He has made this very clear to see that through this cross I am acquiring virtues that I need so much, especially for this Vocation, and because of the situation at the monastery I couldn't have acquired them there.

(Also to add, I have heard it many times that when you are called to Carmel, even though the life and traditions could be completely the same at more than one monastery, it is to a particular community and monastery that He has chosen for you.)

[maximillion]

VJ, if you don't mind my saying so I found your response above to be one of humility and grace......and thank you for sharing.

I think we often speak of Carmel as if it is one place, yet we also know that all of the Carmels are different, and this is less to do with the form of Constitution they follow and everything to do with the unique expression of Himself that God manifests through each Carmel.
He is manifold in His expression of Himself, and reveals Himself in the face of each community through their unique character. That one unique character one must seek in order to have exactly the right conditions for growth in perfection and salvation.......
So, if a person discerns out of one community but then enters another, it is perhaps more to do with connecting to the vision of Himself He reveals in each community......

There [i]may [/i]be 'perpectual discerners' , but to be honest, I don't see them among us on VS and I have not come across any elsewhere - but then I avoid FB like the plague!

[Marian]

maximillion, I did not enter Carmel when I went to visit because I thought it was not for me but it was never out of my thoughts. And something happened at fatima last year that put carmel at forefront again. And get me started thinking about it again.. I posted somewhere here. lol. but VJ was right.. WHen I mentioned to the good priest who was with us at fatima that religious vocation still keeps coming back in my thoughts.. He asked me if I am familiar with the term ,'hounded by heaven' because he said if I really have true vocation it would not stop... the thought of that made me a little scared and also considered it more seriously (not that I didnt before but help me become more cautious that this vocation if I do have it, might determine the fulfillment of my mission on earth and ultimately determine my success in my earthly pilgrimage) One day I will have to face GOD. The thought of that can make one deliriously frantic.. Because I thought about all the time I may have wasted.. But I think everyone who will get to see how important our vocation is will feel the same... so many are lax and they dont realize how important it is ... some dont even think about it at all. they go to the motion of just exsisting. I was guilty of that also.. and even now knowng this it is still sometimes easy to forget..

[ACS67]

Thank you Veni for your thorough answer. I really do appreciate it.

Also Laudem Gloriam, thank you for your blog and the postulant posts. This is a big wake up for me. I did not know all of this about Carmel (1990s) Particularly this part:
[quote]
[b]All your incoming and outgoing mail is read by Our Mother, as is prope[/b]r to keep out undesirable news or emails which would be especially harmful to the new postulants and novices if there were family, friends or fiancees out there trying to make a sister feel guilty or bad for entering, etc. or other things, i.e. if the writer was anti-catholic even though they be a friend for family member. People g[u]et upset when hearing this but it i[/u]s the same with people who enter long term rehabs for recovery of whatever. The rehab, if they don’t totally ban communication in the form of mail and phone calls to and from family, friends, they limit it and they will screen it. They [i][b]also do this in prisons. [/b][/i]May not be a great example but the basics are the same – the “authorities” don’t want to let the person in question be harmed in anyway (or in the prison scenario, the other prisoners and the prison it self – plus they watch for drugs hidden in Poloroid pictures, letters and plans for riots, hits, etc!).
[/quote]
They do this in prisons because they do not TRUST the prisioner. Period. They also do this in mental hospitals. You have to "earn" back your "priviledges." They treat you like a child. Perhaps rightly so, because the prisoner has presumably broken the law. However, I don't understand why one has to be treated like a child in a monastery. I had heard that this use to go on in monasteries prior to Vatican II and the reforms. It did go on in a monastery I stayed at in France back in 2008. I didn't like it then and I still don't.

This is clearly not the life for me. No point in me even wasting my time or any Carmel that is this strict (1990s). As St. Teresa stated, "self knowledge" is very imporant and I have enough self-knowlege to know that I would never make is as one her Carmelites.

I wish everyone well that is discerning Carmel but it is clearly not my life. I sincerely thank all of you and VS. It is a tremendous resource for learning.