Renewing Temporary Vows Question

[Chiquitunga]

Okay, I'm starting a new thread on this one too (with the hope that Sr. Mary Catharine will see this!) I was wondering in the Discalced Carmelite Nun Communities thread about what happens when the time of temporary profession extends over the period of time that the vows were professed.. (in Carmel it's always specifically for three years, at least in the 1990 Constitutions the formula is this way)

I have heard of active communities renewing temporary vows several times before Final Profession. I think this is done privately .. is it? I don't know. Probably different for different communities.

I have noticed in the formation description for several Carmels that the temporary vows can be from three to six years.. including 1990 Carmels like Wichita, [url="http://db.religiouslife.com/reg_life/irl.nsf/org/115"]http://db.religiousl...irl.nsf/org/115[/url] (note: I am not sure what their "pre-postulancy" is but it is definitely not a live-in. I know someone who specifically asked them if they do that. They don't)

The First Profession is usually a big ceremony in cloisters (and active) but then I've never heard of a ceremony for renewing vows .. so it must be done in private if at all..

Anyway, thanks in advance for any information Your Charity (want to use the correct term for addressing a nun! at least in Carmel this is the term, among the Sisters at least, not really for discerners I guess :j) or anyone can provide!

Edited September 21, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[AnneLine]

[i]I could be mistaken, but I think Sr. M. Catharine is one of the nuns at the Association Meeting for the OP nuns, so I don't think she'll see this for a week or so.... [/i]

[i]If she doesn't respond to your question, you may want to calendar a 'bump' after Oct 1 -- they'll be busy with Sr. Maria of the Cross' funeral until that time....[/i]

Edited September 21, 2012 by AnneLine

[Orans]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1348255889' post='2485104']
Okay, I'm starting a new thread on this one too (with the hope that Sr. Mary Catharine will see this!) I was wondering in the Discalced Carmelite Nun Communities thread about what happens when the time of temporary profession extends over the period of time that the vows were professed.. (in Carmel it's always specifically for three years, at least in the 1990 Constitutions the formula is this way)

I have heard of active communities renewing temporary vows several times before Final Profession. I think this is done privately .. is it? I don't know. Probably different for different communities.

I have noticed in the formation description for several Carmels that the temporary vows can be from three to six years.. including 1990 Carmels like Wichita, [url="http://db.religiouslife.com/reg_life/irl.nsf/org/115"]http://db.religiousl...irl.nsf/org/115[/url] (note: I am not sure what their "pre-postulancy" is but it is definitely not a live-in. I know someone who specifically asked them if they do that. They don't)

The First Profession is usually a big ceremony in cloisters (and active) but then I've never heard of a ceremony for renewing vows .. so it must be done in private if at all..

Anyway, thanks in advance for any information Your Charity (want to use the correct term for addressing a nun! at least in Carmel this is the term, among the Sisters at least, not really for discerners I guess :j) or anyone can provide!
[/quote]

I'm not Sr. M. Catherine but I'm Sister "anyone" (as invited in your last line).

When the time of temporary vows is longer than the expiration date of the vows made, the religious/nun/monk must renew the vows even if it is only for one day so that they will not lose the religious state. This renewal of vows happens as often as needed -sometimes just to accommodate a significant date for final profession or for other practical reasons.

The renewal of temporary vows, usually, is not given external relevance. The Constitutions or Rules of every community and Order state how it will be done, but as a general practice it is made in a very simple -low key- form. What is required is, basically, that the professed person pronounces the legitimate formula of vows in the presence of the legitimate superior in accordance with their particular rules.

This new profession even though made "privately" in terms of externals, is a PUBLIC profession of vows (canonically speaking), the same as the first profession that was solemnized to mark the new stage in religious life.
But a temporary professed person that continues being a temporary professed does not cross any threshold or take any new step in religious life. That's why this is not solemnized.

If the person chooses not to renew the vows (or the Community does not accept he/she to renew the vows), the person will no longer be a religious after the date when the vows expire.

The Canon Law has a minimum period of 3 years in temporary vows, and a maximum of 9 years. At the end of 9 years as a temporary professed, the person must make perpetual vows (whether simple or solemn vows) or leave the Institution. Of course, every Order or Congregation may have concrete rules in their Constitutions within this frame, and in any case, specifically approved by the Church for them.

Hope this helps,
Orans

[maximillion]

In my community, First Vows and Perpetual Vows were the only ones taken in a Mass with members of the public present. Renewals of Vows that happened in between were done in Chapter with all Sisters present. A card was sent out to closest relatives announcing the Renewal of Vows, and some visits were permitted, but otherwise it was an 'among us Sister's only' thing.
Oh, and I think only First and Final Professions were mentioned in the Parish newsletter.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='maximillion' timestamp='1348306299' post='2485394']
In my community, First Vows and Perpetual Vows were the only ones taken in a Mass with members of the public present. Renewals of Vows that happened in between were done in Chapter with all Sisters present. A card was sent out to closest relatives announcing the Renewal of Vows, and some visits were permitted, but otherwise it was an 'among us Sister's only' thing.
Oh, and I think only First and Final Professions were mentioned in the Parish newsletter.
[/quote]

This is how the PCCs do the vow renewals as well:
[img]http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e280/emmajaneberry/PCCrenewalvows_zps9cd92dcc.jpg[/img]

[Chiquitunga]

First, Orans, wow! Thank you [u][b][i]so much[/i][/b][/u] for such an informative and thorough explanation! I really appreciate it! Wow, I had no idea about many of the things you mentioned, like loosing the religious state .. and that the vows must be renewed even for a matter of days to fit a special feast for final profession. Thank you for thinking of that and explaining it so well! May God reward you!

Maximillion, thank you also for your reply! You were in a cloistered community right?

Emmaberry, thanks for the picture too! Now, actually that picture makes me ask another question! Underneath I can read it says, "We devotionally renew our holy vows on the .." I believe that's what it says. I would guess it ends with something like on the major Solemnities of our Order or maybe each Sisters' names day.

So my question here then is.. they must be two different things, to [b][i]devotionally[/i][/b] renew ones' vows and to [b][i]actually[/i][/b] renew them (because they need renewal or they will expire!) Are they? Would they be done in a relatively similar way though? Well, I guess that would be up to each community/Order/Institute, etc.

Now that I think of it, in several Carmels I know of (Buffalo, Brooklyn, Alexandria, Iron Mt) they actually renew their vows (this must be considered [b][i]devotionally[/i][/b]) every day after Holy Mass. The Sisters recite them out-loud before the time of silent thanksgiving (so not in the hands of the Prioress) I'm not sure when/how this began. Maybe tomorrow I will see about looking it up in [url="http://www.amazon.com/Few-Lines-Tell-You-Carmel/dp/B000PTMC70"][i]A Few Lines to Tell You[/i][/url] as I remember reading it there.

Anyway, thanks again Orans and everyone! God bless!


p.s. AnneLine thanks for the heads up on Sr. MC!

Edited September 23, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[emmaberry]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1348377495' post='2485613']
Emmaberry, thanks for the picture too! Now, actually that picture makes me ask another question! Underneath I can read it says, "We devotionally renew our holy vows on the .." I believe that's what it says. I would guess it ends with something like on the major Solemnities of our Order or maybe each Sisters' names day.

So my question here then is.. they must be two different things, to [b][i]devotionally[/i][/b] renew ones' vows and to [b][i]actually[/i][/b] renew them (because they need renewal or they will expire!) Are they? Would they be done in a relatively similar way though? Well, I guess that would be up to each community/Order/Institute, etc.

Now that I think of it, in several Carmels I know of (Buffalo, Brooklyn, Alexandria, Iron Mt) they actually renew their vows (this must be considered [b][i]devotionally[/i][/b]) every day after Holy Mass. The Sisters recite them out-loud before the time of silent thanksgiving (so not in the hands of the Prioress) I'm not sure when/how this began. Maybe tomorrow I will see about looking it up in [url="http://www.amazon.com/Few-Lines-Tell-You-Carmel/dp/B000PTMC70"][i]A Few Lines to Tell You[/i][/url] as I remember reading it there.
[/quote]

Great question! I think devotionally, at least with the Poor Clares, means that the vow renewals are not recognized by Church law, and so serve the purposes of the individual and the community. I think the nuns put those specific words in that caption to let the future reader know that their vows are not the kind of vows which must be renewed, which is how some communities are set up.

From a couple articles I quickly Googled, Poor Clares renew their vows devotionally as a community on March 18, Palm Sunday in remembrance of Saint Clare's Palm Sunday entrance into the Franciscan Order. I am kicking myself for not including the full caption in the pictures I took! Please forgive me for that.

I [i]love[/i] how you spoke of certain Carmels renewing their vows after each Holy Mass. The Poor Clares might do this as well, as I know they usually have "What return shall I make to the Lord for His goodness to me?" repeating in their hearts after each Mass, and the return I think would be logical to make would be the renewing of your solemn vows in the privacy of your heart, but who knows if they officially do this!

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1348380535' post='2485625']I think the nuns put those specific words in that caption to let the future reader know that their vows are not the kind of vows which must be renewed, which is how some communities are set up.[/quote]
After Solemn Profession they wouldn't need to be renewed (nor the Perpetual Simple Vows of other religious) But before that yes, the temporary vows of any religious (made for three years in Carmel I know at least) would need to be renewed ..so I am just learning here from Orans .. want to put the old :teach: emoticon up but it's long gone (it was a chalkboard with a smiley holding some chalk :j)

But yes, after Solemn or Perpetual Vows no .. so yes, that could be a reason why they put devotional there, you're right (because they are Solemned professed already and renewing them) Hope my wording isn't too confusing here! I better go to bed!

p.s. no worries about the caption in the picture! :j and that is great to know about March 18th.. that must be what it said. also, I want to give your post props but I'm out :I

Edited September 23, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1348255889' post='2485104']
The First Profession is usually a big ceremony in cloisters (and active) but then I've never heard of a ceremony for renewing vows .. so it must be done in private if at all..
[/quote]

I just had a clothing, but I was able to see a first vows ceremony in the Carmelite community I was in and the first vows ceremony was shorter than the clothing ceremony. Though in the community it was celebrated more like a wedding; which was really beautiful.

About renewing vows; this was two times a year for all the Sisters. It was done in the nuns choir; the picture that Emmaberry posted reminds me of this. Reverend Mother would be sitting and all the Sisters formed a line (postulants, novices, those in first vows, then solemn.) Each would go in her turn and kneel before Mother with their hands in hers with a piece of paper that had written on it what to say. Obviously the postulants said something different than those in vows (those in first vows and solemn said the same thing.) I really wish I could remember what was said! Though at both a first vow ceremony and a solemn vow ceremony they also repeated the same thing, also kneeling before Mother, and then they signed their name on a piece of paper. She had some kind of microphone on her so that those on the other side of the grille during the Mass and ceremony would be able to hear her also. The day before making solemn profession, the Sister renewed her vows with Reverend Mother before Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. If the sister wanted she could do this also as a private devotion; but the whole community did it together 2 times a year; very reverently too.

The piece of paper that the Sister read aloud and then signed her name (when she promised the vows) was placed on the Altar near Our Lord along with her bouquet.

edit to add: after the Sister went to Reverend Mother, she would go and kneel before Our Lord. We had to choose three external acts and interior virtues that we believed we needed to improve on. These were kept only for you, the superior, and Our Lord. These weren't said aloud.

Edited September 23, 2012 by VeniJesuAmorMi

[emmaberry]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348416719' post='2485688']
I just had a clothing, but I was able to see a first vows ceremony in the Carmelite community I was in and the first vows ceremony was shorter than the clothing ceremony. Though in the community it was celebrated more like a wedding; which was really beautiful.

About renewing vows; this was two times a year for all the Sisters. It was done in the nuns choir; the picture that Emmaberry posted reminds me of this. Reverend Mother would be sitting and all the Sisters formed a line (postulants, novices, those in first vows, then solemn.) Each would go in her turn and kneel before Mother with their hands in hers with a piece of paper that had written on it what to say. Obviously the postulants said something different than those in vows (those in first vows and solemn said the same thing.) I really wish I could remember what was said! Though at both a first vow ceremony and a solemn vow ceremony they also repeated the same thing, also kneeling before Mother, and then they signed their name on a piece of paper. She had some kind of microphone on her so that those on the other side of the grille during the Mass and ceremony would be able to hear her also. The day before making solemn profession, the Sister renewed her vows with Reverend Mother before Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. If the sister wanted she could do this also as a private devotion; but the whole community did it together 2 times a year; very reverently too.

The piece of paper that the Sister read aloud and then signed her name (when she promised the vows) was placed on the Altar near Our Lord along with her bouquet.

edit to add: after the Sister went to Reverend Mother, she would go and kneel before Our Lord. We had to choose three external acts and interior virtues that we believed we needed to improve on. These were kept only for you, the superior, and Our Lord. These weren't said aloud.
[/quote]

I so enjoy your posts (and others here on VS) that reflect on these little things you remember from your time in religious life! They are so beautiful. These little realities of the life that us 'outsiders' cannot know about before entering are so special... Every one seems like a gift or a small treasure. I remember my favorite professor lecturing on Uncle Tom's Cabin and becoming emotional when she was reading the beginning, when the African slave is unpacking his 'treasures' ie his name, his parents names, and his heritage. I think I'll always remember the tears in her eyes as she spoke about his poverty and not having anything to keep except his family history.

Sorry, that was a rabbit hole, but I really like these details of the life that are so abundant on VS. They are priceless for those who have experienced them.

Edited September 23, 2012 by emmaberry

[Orans]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1348381694' post='2485631']
..so I am just learning here from Orans .. want to put the old :teach: emoticon up but it's long gone (it was a chalkboard with a smiley holding some chalk :j)
[/quote]

Thanks AnneLine, Chiquitunga for your kindness. There are interesting replies on this topic. I'm always learning from the posts here at Phatmas so I'm happy to be able to participate with some little contribution here or there ... and still looking forward to hearing from Sr. M. Catherine though.
Orans

[reminiscere]

I have a feeling that this practice began during the Mexican persecutions, when the Sisters weren't sure if they'd even make it to the next day let alone their eventual respective Professions or devotional Renewals on September 14 or January 6.

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1348377495' post='2485613']
Now that I think of it, in several Carmels I know of (Buffalo, Brooklyn, Alexandria, Iron Mt) they actually renew their vows (this must be considered [b][i]devotionally[/i][/b]) every day after Holy Mass. The Sisters recite them out-loud before the time of silent thanksgiving (so not in the hands of the Prioress) I'm not sure when/how this began.
[/quote]

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='reminiscere' timestamp='1348481040' post='2485939']
I have a feeling that this practice began during the Mexican persecutions, when the Sisters weren't sure if they'd even make it to the next day let alone their eventual respective Professions or devotional Renewals on September 14 or January 6.
[/quote]
Wonderful observation! Thanks for sharing! I bet that is correct. Also, I wanted to note, this devotional renewal is [i]after[/i] the period of silent thanksgiving [url="http://www.cloisteredlife.com/carmelites/"]http://www.cloistere...com/carmelites/[/url]

[Chiquitunga]

Okay, some quotes from the 1990 Constitutions, they were on amazon once! [url="http://www.amazon.com/constitutions-discalced-blessed-virgin-carmel/dp/8460404366/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1348551539&sr=8-2&keywords=discalced+constitutions"]here[/url] I cannot find anything specifically on renewing vows, but alas it is pretty late! and I have not read them from cover to cover .. yet But here are some points that touch on things we have discussed for now:

[b]184 Temporary profession will be made for three years.[/b]

[b]186 The formation of the nuns will continue after first profession, and thus, for at least two years, they will remain in the novitiate under the direction of the Mistress.[/b]

[b]188 The time to leave the novitiate and join the community will take place in the third year of this second stage of formation, and it will be determined by the Mother Prioress according to the special circumstances of each one.[/b]

[b]189 The period of temporary vows being completed, the religious who freely requests it and is judged suitable is to be admitted to profession of solemn vows. Otherwise she must leave the Order, unless for just motives the Mother Prioress with the deliberative vote of the Chapter grants her an extension for a period which must not exceed six years.[/b]

[b]190 Solemn profession may be anticipated for a just cause, but not more than three months. It is to be preceded by a retreat of eight full days.[/b]


So it does seem that it is really an exception to go over three years for temporary vows, but is possible. Also it is interesting to read that Solemn Vows can be taken in less than three years (up to three months less) after the First Profession .. for "a just cause"

[Chiquitunga]

VJAM, thank you so much for sharing your experience! (keep running out of props to give you!) As emmaberry said, it is really wonderful to hear about!

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348416719' post='2485688']Obviously the postulants said something different than those in vows (those in first vows and solemn said the same thing.) [b]I really wish I could remember what was said![/b] Though at both a first vow ceremony and a solemn vow ceremony they also repeated the same thing, also kneeling before Mother, and then they signed their name on a piece of paper.[/quote]

Here are the two formulas from the Constitutions:


[b][u]For the Profession of Temporary Vows[/u][/b]

[b]I, Sister N. of N., make my profession of temporary vows for three years and I promise obedience, chastity and poverty to God our Lord, to the Most Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel and to you, Reverend Mother Prioress and to your successors, according to the primitive Rule of the Order of Discalced Carmelites and our Constitutions.[/b]

[u][b]For the Solemn Profession[/b][/u]

[b]I, Sister N. of N., make my solemn profession and I promise obedience, chastity and poverty to God our Lord, to the Most Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel and to you, Reverend Mother Prioress and to your successors, according to the primitive Rule of the Order of Discalced Carmelites and our Constitutions, until death.[/b]