Free Will.

[Spem in alium]

Do you believe we are completely free? Completely determined? Or a bit of both?

Yesterday I had my Philosophy class. We were talking about this issue and relating it to God. People were trying to work out how an omniscient God could co-exist with free will. They were asking questions like:

How does salvation work if we are predetermined? What is the point if God already knows where we'll go after death?
Why would God create people who hate religion or who hate Him, knowing full well that this is what they will end up doing before He creates them?
If our lives are determined and we thank God for goodness, does that not entitle us to blame Him for the bad elements of life or for our wrongful actions?

What do you guys think? I'm just interested in hearing opinions, not so much in arguing.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Spem in alium

[Archaeology cat]

Well, there's a difference between knowing what one will do and willing it to happen, too. For example, my aunt has a photo of my cousin literally leaping out of his playpen as a baby. Se knew he'd do it, so she waited with the camera. She didn't encourage it or want it, but she knew she couldn't stop him. While no analogy is perfect, in a way that's how it is with us. God knows what we'll do, but doesn't force it to happen. We have the choice, and without really having the choice, we couldn't choose to love.

[Spem in alium]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1348240017' post='2485030']
Well, there's a difference between knowing what one will do and willing it to happen, too. For example, my aunt has a photo of my cousin literally leaping out of his playpen as a baby. Se knew he'd do it, so she waited with the camera. She didn't encourage it or want it, but she knew she couldn't stop him. While no analogy is perfect, in a way that's how it is with us. God knows what we'll do, but doesn't force it to happen. We have the choice, and without really having the choice, we couldn't choose to love.
[/quote]

This is a great response, thank you

Do you think God has a plan for our lives? This question came up yesterday. Many people were saying that they couldn't see how we could have free will and still have our lives planned by God. I do think God has a plan for me, but sometimes it is hard to reconcile this idea with the point of free will.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I was lead to believe there are only two destiny's for man, Our own will or GODS will. The holy mother was predistined but i don't know of anyone else. I have struggled with this and have forgotten the conclusion i came to. This idea i just had may be something to think and pray upon, 'We are all predistened to heaven but in the course of our lives that predistnation can be rebuked/withdrawn.' But than i guess it also can be regained, st paul says that GOD can cut off a branch at anytime he so chooses but can also reattach it at his own choosing.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Spem in alium]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1348240881' post='2485035']
I was lead to believe there are only two destiny's for man, Our own will or GODS will. The holy mother was predistined but i don't know of anyone else. I have struggled with this and have forgotten the conclusion i came to. This idea i just had may be something to think and pray upon, 'We are all predistened to heaven but in the course of our lives that predistnation can be rebuked/withdrawn.' But than i guess it also can be regained, st paul says that GOD can cut off a branch at anytime he so chooses but can also reattach it at his own choosing.
[/quote]

Thanks for this. I agree with that. I think that our own will can act as our separation from God. He knows the nature of our hearts and wants us to be closer to Him, but ultimately it is our choices which can lead us nearer or farther away.
I believe His plan is always fulfilled. Some people would say that this would contradict free will significantly, but I think I'm beginning to see how the two can work together.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Spem in alium' timestamp='1348240561' post='2485033']


This is a great response, thank you

Do you think God has a plan for our lives? This question came up yesterday. Many people were saying that they couldn't see how we could have free will and still have our lives planned by God. I do think God has a plan for me, but sometimes it is hard to reconcile this idea with the point of free will.
[/quote]Yes, but we have the ability to reject it. Another example from parenting: let's say a parent plans for the child to go into the family business. But the child chooses to do something else. Again, not a perfect analogy.

[Spem in alium]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1348407379' post='2485659']
Yes, but we have the ability to reject it. Another example from parenting: let's say a parent plans for the child to go into the family business. But the child chooses to do something else. Again, not a perfect analogy.
[/quote]

Ah, I see. And would you say that we accept this plan when we place God's Will above our own?

[Archaeology cat]

I think so

[Spem in alium]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1348407917' post='2485662']
I think so
[/quote]

Thanks; this clears up a lot for me!

[Annie12]

Lets say you choose your will over God's will. Would God help you with your will if you asked him to since his will is for us to have free will?

[mortify]

We have free will but we rarely use it

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1348463641' post='2485898']
We have free will but we rarely use it
[/quote]

I am not sure I can agree with this. Free will is an all or nothing kind of thing. If we have free will, then it is not possible to just 'not use it'. We can use it poorly. We can be passive and let things happen to us. We can act wrongly. But at the end of the day even being passive is a decision.
I would rather say "we have free will, but we rarely use it well."

[Spem in alium]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1348467398' post='2485919']
I would rather say "we have free will, but we rarely use it well."
[/quote]

I would echo this.

I do have a question regarding good or benevolent acts. Many people say that the will of man is bad, evil, bent on sin, etc. So if a person decides to go out of their way to do something good for someone else, is that counted as an act of free will? Or would it be God acting through that person?

[Papist]

God sees the past, present and future all at once, i.e. time does not exist with God. I believe we have free will within how God made us. What I mean is that we have free will, yet God written in our hearts the desire to do good and avoid evil. However, since The Fall, we have a tough time knowing right and wrong. God gave us free will b/c for love to be genuine, it must be given freely, not forced. If God forced us love Him, how genuine would that love be. Same can be applied throughout our lives. How happy would I be if my wife was forced to love me, and not freely choosing to love me?