Basilisa Marie Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) Part of the reason why consummation and consent of the spouses are both required for a valid marriage is because in the early Church, there was some debate as to whether consummation made the marriage or the consent. Just one or the other offered a variety of problems (secret marriages that were easily denied by one party, etc), so naturally the Church decided that both were required, and that a representative of the Church had to witness the consent-giving. The birth of a child was generally considered the "witness" of the consummation in many places. But back on topic - I think it's more fair to compare the pain people experience with homosexuality to that of infertility than it is to compare it to not being able to have a second wife. You don't actually want a second wife, and get to experience the joy of having a wife and creating a family with her. It's not the same as having to go without. We all have crosses to bear, and should bear them, but we shouldn't make light of another person's cross. Edited September 21, 2012 by Basilisa Marie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregorMendel Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Well, I can honestly say that I've learned something today! Thank you all for your thoughts upon the matter, but I must admit that conflating physical impairments with sterility or homosexuality seems crass and cruel to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 [quote name='GregorMendel' timestamp='1348187240' post='2484810'] Well, I can honestly say that I've learned something today! Thank you all for your thoughts upon the matter, but I must admit that conflating physical impairments with sterility or homosexuality seems crass and cruel to me. [/quote] Learning is fun. I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. It's not really "conflating"...from what I'm reading what's being said is that there are a variety of different things that can "impede" a valid sacramental marriage, and that the pain one suffers from them is very real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 [quote name='GregorMendel' timestamp='1348187240' post='2484810'] Well, I can honestly say that I've learned something today! Thank you all for your thoughts upon the matter, but I must admit that conflating physical impairments with sterility or homosexuality seems crass and cruel to me. [/quote]Sterility is not the same as it isn't an impediment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregorMendel Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 [quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1348174406' post='2484730'] I agree completely. I struggle with speaking in front of large groups of people or when I'm nervous. I stutter and sometimes you can't get a word out of me. This is my Cross to bear. It's difficult at times, but the Church is still there to help me. The Church never claimed it would take away pain, so I'm not sure why someone would interpret it as that. [/quote] To conflate the impediments faced by a stutter to those faced by those who are homosexual is at least illogical, if not offensive. This has all gotten away from my original point, being 'does anyone think Father Pontifex's message would be satisfying to homosexuals trying to abide by the laws of the church?' Sure, it acknowledges the struggles of those faced with ssa, but I dont believe the "No, but Yes" statement lives up to its goal of affirming the individual within the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='GregorMendel' timestamp='1348188687' post='2484825'] To conflate the impediments faced by a stutter to those faced by those who are homosexual is at least illogical, if not offensive. This has all gotten away from my original point, being 'does anyone think Father Pontifex's message would be satisfying to homosexuals trying to abide by the laws of the church?' Sure, it acknowledges the struggles of those faced with ssa, but I dont believe the "No, but Yes" statement lives up to its goal of affirming the individual within the church. [/quote] I'm not comparing them as equal, first of all. Nowhere did I ever compare them as equal. Secondly, you have no clue how tough it is stuttering. Have you ever seen The King's Speech? If you haven't than you should. Not only is it one of the best movies ever created, but it gives light to the real struggles of those who stutter. Imagine every conversation you have ever had in your life, every speech you had to give, every time you spoke in front of an audience, every time you had to read in class, and then imagine you stuttered your entire way through it all to the point that nobody could understand you and everybody was laughing at you. Imagine stuttering so badly during a phone call to Father Gabriel of the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal that the entire conversation turned into him talking to you about it, and then after laying down in your bed as you thought about how much you hate yourself for stuttering. Then imagine feeling a call to the Priesthood and asking God just what He thought He was doing calling [i]you [/i]of all people to such a vocation? Does He want you to suffer and be miserable? Does He find it funny or something? Stuttering is a terrible cross and I am offended that you would say it isn't. Edited September 21, 2012 by FuturePriest387 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 [quote name='GregorMendel' timestamp='1348188687' post='2484825'] To conflate the impediments faced by a stutter to those faced by those who are homosexual is at least illogical, if not offensive. This has all gotten away from my original point, being 'does anyone think Father Pontifex's message would be satisfying to homosexuals trying to abide by the laws of the church?' Sure, it acknowledges the struggles of those faced with ssa, but I dont believe the "No, but Yes" statement lives up to its goal of affirming the individual within the church. [/quote] It's a 2'38" rap (minus intro and credits). It expresses some theology and the attitude of the Church, but I'm not sure any 2'38" rap is capable of being that definitive. Will it change the understanding/opinion of any SSA listeners? That's asking a lot. But it might get them thinking, researching, talking to knowledgeable people. And if people are looking to short videos to understand such complex topics... they might be looking in the wrong place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1348180221' post='2484742'] I already have a wife, so I can't get married to another one. The church hates me!!! Wait, that means Obama hates me too!!! [/quote] Maybe homosexuals feel unwelcome because you God wanted, at one point in history, for them to be murdered for their 'abominable' behavior. [color=#000000][font='Charis SIL', charis, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=4] [b][size=4][sup]13 [/sup]If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.[/size][/b][/size][/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1348189993' post='2484843'] Maybe homosexuals feel unwelcome because you God wanted, at one point in history, for them to be murdered for their 'abominable' behavior. [color=#000000][font=Charis SIL', charis, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=4][b][size=4][sup]13 [/sup]If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.[/size][/b][/size][/font][/color] [/quote] That's something we of the Christian faith call the "Old Covenant", one of five Old Covenants, in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I'm not trying to be trite. But the Church has always preached that it should love the sinner. But for most of its history it has also encouraged the state to murder gay people. This incitement to murder was, at least nominally, not born out of hatred, but saying that somebody needs to be killed for their own good and the good of the society can kind of leave a bad taste in a group's mouth. These nominal statements also don't erase the ordinary experiences that most gay people have with conservative Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 [quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1348190084' post='2484844'] That's something we of the Christian faith call the "Old Covenant", one of five Old Covenants, in fact. [/quote] Right. And I identified it as one point in time. I'm not trying to turn this into a referendum on the Church's view on homosexuals. But I think people here are taking a somewhat flippant attitude towards the alienation that an overwhelming majority of homosexuals feel towards the faith that most of them were raised in. I don't care. I'm happy for you all to drive away homosexuals. I want people to lead happy, unrepressed lives. But it is just something you all may want to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1348190332' post='2484851'] Right. And I identified it as one point in time. I'm not trying to turn this into a referendum on the Church's view on homosexuals. But I think people here are taking a somewhat flippant attitude towards the alienation that an overwhelming majority of homosexuals feel towards the faith that most of them were raised in. I don't care. I'm happy for you all to drive away homosexuals. I want people to lead happy, unrepressed lives. But it is just something you all may want to consider. [/quote] I'm not either, and I know that you marked it as one point in time. But after a while it gets to be a bit much when every single day you hear another thing about the big bad Catholic Church that wants everybody to be miserable and won't be satisfied until it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJon16 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1348190178' post='2484847'] I'm not trying to be trite. But the Church has always preached that it should love the sinner. But for most of its history it has also encouraged the state to murder gay people. This incitement to murder was, at least nominally, not born out of hatred, but saying that somebody needs to be killed for their own good and the good of the society can kind of leave a bad taste in a group's mouth. These nominal statements also don't erase the ordinary experiences that most gay people have with conservative Christians. [/quote] I quote to thee from the CCC: [quote] [b]2358[/b] The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.[b] They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.[/b] These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. [/quote] That doesn't sound like "lets murder them for the better of themselves and mankind" ... Pax, bro. Edited September 21, 2012 by BigJon16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Something new on a regular basis. Let the state burn a hermitic one day, hug a gay the next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 eh . . . . nevermind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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