There Cannot Be A God

[the171]

If there is a God up in the sky why the hell does he allow rape, abuse, murder, assault, famines. I can't see how a loving God could let this happen. If "he" is all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing why did "he" let all this stuff happen.?? Why would "he" allow all this?! People are suffering, dying. I can't underhand how a "loving God" could allow this. That doesn't sound loving to me. Even if there IS a God, he cannot be all-loving. I just don't understand. I want to believe that there is some sort of hope but all I see is darkness and death. All I see is a wall. There can't be anything beyond that.i don't understand.

[Nihil Obstat]

[b] Article 2. Whether the supreme good, God, is the cause of evil?[/b]

[b]Objection 1.[/b] It would seem that the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06640a.htm"]supreme good[/url], [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url], is the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]cause[/url] of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"]evil[/url]. For it is said ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/isa045.htm#verse5"]Isaiah 45:5-7[/url]): "I am the Lord, and there is no other [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url], forming the light, and creating darkness, making peace, and creating [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"]evil[/url]." And [url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/amo003.htm#verse6"]Amos 3:6[/url], "Shall there be [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"]evil[/url] in a city, which the Lord hath not done?"
[b]Objection 2.[/b] Further, the effect of the secondary [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]cause[/url] is reduced to the first [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]cause[/url]. But [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm"]good[/url] is the[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]cause[/url] of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"]evil[/url], as was said above ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1049.htm#1"]Article 1[/url]). Therefore, since [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url] is the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]cause[/url] of every [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm"]good[/url], as was shown above (2, 3; 6, 1,4), it follows that also every [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"]evil[/url] is from [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url].
[b]Objection 3.[/b] Further, as is said by the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01713a.htm"]Philosopher[/url] (Phys. ii, text 30), the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]cause[/url] of both safety and danger of the ship is the same. But [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url] is the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]cause[/url] of the safety of all things. Therefore He is the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]cause[/url]of all perdition and of all [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"]evil[/url].
[b]On the contrary,[/b] [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02084a.htm"]Augustine[/url] says (QQ. 83, qu. 21), that, "[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url] is not the author of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"]evil[/url] because He is not the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]cause[/url] of tending to not-being."
[b]I answer that,[/b] As appears from what was said (1), the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"]evil[/url] which consists in the defect of action is always [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]caused[/url] by the defect of the agent. But in [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url] there is no defect, but the highest perfection, as was shown above (Question 4, Article 1). Hence, the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"]evil[/url] which consists in defect of action, or which is[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]caused[/url] by defect of the agent, is not reduced to [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url] as to its [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]cause[/url].
But the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"]evil[/url] which consists in the corruption of some things is reduced to [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url] as the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]cause[/url]. And this appears as regards both [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm"]natural[/url] things and [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15506a.htm"]voluntary[/url] things. For it was said (1) that some agent inasmuch as it produces by its power a form to which follows corruption and defect, [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]causes[/url] by its power that corruption and defect. But it is manifest that the form which [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url] chiefly intends in things [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04470a.htm"]created[/url] is the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm"]good[/url] of the order of the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15183a.htm"]universe[/url]. Now, the order of the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15183a.htm"]universe[/url] requires, as was said above (22, 2, ad 2; 48, 2), that there should be some things that can, and do sometimes, fail. And thus [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url], by [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]causing[/url]in things the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm"]good[/url] of the order of the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15183a.htm"]universe[/url], consequently and as it were by [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01096c.htm"]accident[/url], [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]causes[/url] the corruptions of things, according to [url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1sa002.htm#verse6"]1 Samuel 2:6[/url]: "The Lord killeth and maketh alive." But when we read that "[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url] hath not made death" ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/wis001.htm#verse13"]Wisdom 1:13[/url]), the sense is that [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url] does not will death for its own sake. Nevertheless the order of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm"]justice[/url] belongs to the order of the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15183a.htm"]universe[/url]; and this requires that penalty should be dealt out to sinners. And so [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url] is the author of the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"]evil[/url] which is penalty, but not of the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"]evil[/url] which is fault, by reason of what is said above.
[b]Reply to Objection 1.[/b] These passages refer to the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"]evil[/url] of penalty, and not to the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"]evil[/url] of fault.
[b]Reply to Objection 2.[/b] The effect of the deficient secondary [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]cause[/url] is reduced to the first non-deficient[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]cause[/url] as regards what it has of being and perfection, but not as regards what it has of defect; just as whatever there is of motion in the act of limping is [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]caused[/url] by the motive power, whereas what there is of obliqueness in it does not come from the motive power, but from the curvature of the leg. And, likewise, whatever there is of being and action in a bad action, is reduced to [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url] as the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]cause[/url]; whereas whatever defect is in it is not [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]caused[/url] by [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url], but by the deficient secondary [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]cause[/url].
[b]Reply to Objection 3.[/b] The sinking of a ship is attributed to the sailor as the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm"]cause[/url], from the fact that he does not fulfil what the safety of the ship requires; but [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url] does not fail in doing what is [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10733a.htm"]necessary[/url] for the safety of all. Hence there is no parity.

[CatherineM]

We don't like our parents telling us we have a curfew. We don't like the police telling us we have to drive the speed limit. Yet, we want God to control our every move. We either have free will, or we don't. We don't have true free will if God only let's us do good stuff.

[the171]

I just don't understand. It doesn't make sense.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='the171' timestamp='1348087032' post='2484304']
If "he" is all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing why did "he" let all this stuff happen.?? Why would "he" allow all this?! [/quote]

The worst thing that has ever happened in this world is the crucifixion of His Son...the crucifixion of God. This however, brought about the salvation of the entire human race.

God allows bad things to happen in order to bring a greater good.

[beatitude]

The part about your question that interested me most is the way you described God as 'up there in the sky'. He isn't up there, he is here, and in a very intimate way - he became human for us. He knows all the pains and fears that come with living in a mortal body, including what it is to go hungry, to be a refugee, to be persecuted and even killed. This means that Christ can be found even in the most frightening and degrading aspects of human existence. He told us not to fear those who can kill the body. By his own life and death he has shown us that he is present in every place, from our happiest moments to our most hurtful. Considering that, I remember another beautiful Bible verse: "There is no fear in love, for perfect love drives out fear." Through sharing in our humanity, Christ entered into our suffering and made it possible for us to love one another deeply in spite of it. The result is that our fear decreases - if we let him take it.

God gave human beings the ability to create life, a supremely loving act. But this also means that we have the ability to destroy it, and we destroy it in all sorts of ways - not just through murder and war, but through letting one another starve when there is plenty of food to go round (think for a moment of how much food we waste), through rape, even through sniping at one another with gossip. We have the freedom to love, which also means we have the freedom to turn away from it - and so we hurt one another. Christ came to bind us together again and we find him in our wounds. It is our responsibility as Christians to work to create and not to destroy, which means steadily bearing the suffering of others with compassion and kindness, just as Christ does. We are part of a story that is still unfolding, and that ends here:

"See, the home of God is among mortals.
He will dwell with them;
they will be his peoples,
and God himself will be with them;
he will wipe every tear from their eyes.
Death will be no more;
mourning and crying and pain will be no more,
for the first things have passed away." - Revelation 21:3-4.

Edited September 19, 2012 by beatitude

[cmaD2006]

God also want us to have the freedom to choose Him.

Think of it this way ... if we didn't have the freedom to choose between right and wrong, then we'd be robots under God's control. That's not the way God thought of us.

We have a choice to choose Him (good) or to reject Him (bad/evil). It is a choice we have had all the way back to Adam and Eve.

Yet in spite of the possibility that we may reject God and all that He is about, He loves us immensely, infinitely and eternally.

There is a lot of evil in this world, and as MIkolbe says ... "God uses all for the good of those who love Him..." (Romans 8:28).

[Nihil Obstat]

When I was young I got punished when I did things that were wrong. I do not think my parents [i]enjoyed[/i] punishing me, in fact I am guessing that when I myself am a parent I will find that I greatly dislike it, but they knew, as I know now, that it was for my own good.
If my parents are human beings like me, sinful as I am, then how much greater is the wisdom and reasonableness of the chastisements that God offers for our own perfection?
For that matter, how much greater is the opportunity for us to grow in Grace and Truth?

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='the171' timestamp='1348087032' post='2484304']
I want to believe that there is some sort of hope but all I see is darkness and death. All I see is a wall. There can't be anything beyond that.i don't understand.
[/quote]

Maybe put your eyes on something other than the "darkness and death."

Examples:
Flowers -- the beauty in them (no, don't focus on the fact that they wither and die).
Babies -- how they coo, when they smile, how peaceful they look when they sleep (no, don't focus on those who are dying)
Animals (birds) -- look at how high they fly, how free they are (no, don't focus on one that has died or in captivity)
Skyscraper -- the wonders of how man can be so intelligent and creative to build one (no, don't focus on the money involved)

etc.

You can look at things with a different perspective. I look at the marvels of flight -- how I can go across the country in a few hours instead of spending days trying to drive. Or even the marvels of a car -- how it moves me from point a to point b in a few minutes, when it would take me an hour to do the same on a horse. Or the marvels of a horse -- how the horse can move me from point a to point b in less time than it would take my old-and-tired-feet-and-back to get there.

Or the marvels of my being able to walk ... that I can get from point a to point b, when someone with a physical ailment can't. Or the marvels of science, that now gives mobility to a person who before would have been highly restricted.

I hope you get my line of thinking -- if I focused every day on the bad things in life, I would have committed suicide by now (take a look at the prayer threads that I've posted recently). If I focus on my neck, and how it is a condition that I have to live with forever I would think it is hopeless. But it is not -- because I am breathing, I am moving, I am living, and I have a God who loves me as I am, with warts and all. And that when I'm having a rough time, He's there. He puts people there that can help me get out of that funk, that support me, that give me a reason to smile. I have family that I love, even when they are a pain in the neck (and cause more pain in the neck due to the stress lol).

I have had a lot of times where everything seems black. Nothing is right. It is all hopeless. And it is a horrible feeling. A change of focus does help -- and the support of family, friends, and as necessary professionals help you get out of that darkness/despair/hopelessness. And finally, the one to most depend on during those times is Christ. He's always there. Just pray and say "hi -- I need you now."

(sorry for the length ... hope it makes some sort of sense ... hang in there the171)

[Anomaly]

Some "god" is not going to come down and give you happiness or save you from something. You have to find it yourself in the people around you and be the positive for other people in your world.
What was an omnipotent all knowing god doing for the thousands crippled physically and mentally in the tsunamis or for children and innocents maimed in natural disasters. What about the people who are killed in these disaster who aren't quite "right" with the requirements to be "saved".

[the171]

How can I find happiness in other people when other people are the ones who have screwed me over? While God just say up there and watched. No one is making any sense. I just don't understand. I want to but I can't.

[GeorgiiMichael]

Better question, why do WE let those things happen. It's within our ability to stop the atrocities of our fellows, so why do WE allow them to happen?

We tend to focus on the negatives and ask, "Well where is God in this equation." Rarely do we remember to look at the positives in order to see where God is in our lives. Things smell of elderberries now for you. I don't know what they are, but it sounds like something really bad has happened. I won't deny that. And I won't try to tell you that the pain you're feeling isn't real. But don't allow it to swallow you up. Remember the blessings in your life.

Praying for you, the171.

[BG45]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1348089663' post='2484321']
The worst thing that has ever happened in this world is the crucifixion of His Son...the crucifixion of God. This however, brought about the salvation of the entire human race.

God allows bad things to happen in order to bring a greater good.
[/quote]

Was about to say that, but you beat me to it. Any time I start dwelling on the evil in the world or my problems, I start thinking, "If He let His Son be brutally tortured and killed for my salvation, why should I expect Him to not allow similar for others?"

Prayers for you the171, like Cma said, maybe try to focus on the positive things of this world, or the wondrous. Sometimes, when I'm lucky enough to see the sky at night without any city lights, I'll lay on a towel on the ground and just stare at the stars in wonder. Each dot of light a massive nuclear furnace, most orbited by planets. Each of those dots a solar system in our galaxy. Then I start to think, there are hundreds of thousands to millions of those in this galaxy, and this galaxy is but one of an untold number throughout the universe. Somewhere, a new star is being brought into life, somewhere an old star is going nova or collapsing into a dwarf form. The building blocks of our universe are in such constant motion as to be unimaginable to our minds, things happening every moment across the breadth and span of our reality, but somewhere, there is the One Who made all of it and Who knows each one of us by name.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='the171' timestamp='1348096311' post='2484384']
How can I find happiness in other people when other people are the ones who have screwed me over? While God just say up there and watched. No one is making any sense. I just don't understand. I want to but I can't.
[/quote]Don't let your happiness be dependent on or only come from others. Besides, even if there was a god, he's not making anyone do anything.

[PhuturePriest]

171, at first I thought someone had hacked your account because this doesn't sound like you. I'm not going to answer your questions since other people are much better at that than I am, but I will try to help you with this. It sounds as if you are under a lot of pressure from school and everything, and I understand that. But please, don't let it get to you. You have so much to be thankful for. You have a Catholic family, you get to go to conferences and camps quite a bit, you had a good upbringing, you are very mature for your age, even as far as girls go, God has blessed you. If you sat down and truly thought about every blessing in your life you wouldn't be able to write it all because you can't think about every blessing you have. Why? Because they are so numerous and it is easy to forget them and focus on the negative. I know at times some question why there is darkness and suffering in the world, but there is so much good in the world as well. Please, for your sake, focus on the positives of your life and the life around you. Life will be hard and it will kick you down. But it is only through the love of God that you will be able to get back up.