Katholikos Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 One of the difficulties between Catholics and Protestants lies with the definition of "church." From the beginning of Christianity, the Church has been recognized as a visible organization founded by Christ on St. Peter (Mt 16:18) and guided by the Spirit (Jn 14:26, Acts 1:1-2, et al.), whose job it is to carry on Christ's work of salvation. It is both visible (the Church Militant on earth) and invisible (the Church Triumphant in heaven). He abides (remains) with us through His Church (John 6:56 et al.). Great saints, great sinners, and all those somewhere on the continuum between these two opposites belong to His Church. When Protestantism was born in the 16th century, an avalanche of denominations developed. That rendered the idea of a single, visible organization untenable. Martin Luther envisioned two churches -- his own and the Catholic Church. But the divisions kept proliferating, and a new, broader definition of "church" became necessary. So Martin Luther invented the "invisible church of true believers" to accommodate this need. Members of the competing and conflicting denominations could be assured of belonging to this invisible church if they were "true believers" and "truly saved." And since this invisible church consisted of the "true believers" and the "truly redeemed," there were no sinners in it. Luther held that salvation was instantaneous -- by faith alone -- and couldn't be lost. Protestants are appalled at the humanity of the Catholic Church, which is a hospital for sinners and a training ground for saints. They are shocked by the sins of its members -- especially when those sinners are priests and popes. Like the Pharisees, they object to Christ associating with sinners (Mt 9:11). Christ's answer is always the same: "Those who are well do not need a physician, but the sick do" (Mt 9:12). Catholics know that we are all sinners, and some sin more grieviously than others. But it's all sin. We all need Christ the Physician -- who heals us through His Church. Protestants cannot see that the Church is more than the sum total of its members. "...Christ loved the Church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water and the word, that he might present to himself the Church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish" Ephesians 5:25-27. The Church is holy, spotless, without blemish, sanctified; its individual members are not. Whom should we believe: Christ or Martin Luther? JMJ Likos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 Christ! Word Likos God Bless Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 another winner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 beautiful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundsheep Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 Good job likos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 Whom should we believe: Christ or Roman Catholic Church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='May 21 2004, 10:59 AM'] Whom should we believe: Christ or Roman Catholic Church? [/quote] You see thats the thing you can't seperate that statement! It is said Christ's Roman Catholic Church! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 Jason, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted May 21, 2004 Author Share Posted May 21, 2004 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='May 21 2004, 10:59 AM']Whom should we believe: Christ or Roman Catholic Church?[/quote] Dairy Girl: Jesus Christ to his Apostles, the leaders of His Church, about 30 A.D.: [b][i]HE WHO HEARS YOU HEARS ME, AND HE WHO REJECTS YOU REJECTS ME . . .[/i][/b] Luke 10:16 Jesus to Saul of Tarsus: "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting [i][b]me[/b] [/i]?" Saul to Jesus: "Who are you, sir?" The reply came: [i][b]"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."[/b][/i] [b][i][u]Saul was persecuting THE NEWBORN CATHOLIC CHURCH[/u].[/i][/b] (Acts 9:1-6) The Church and Christ are one and the same. Christ is the head. The Church is His Body. Col. 1:15-18, 1:24, 2:19; Eph. 4:4-7; 4:11-16, 1 Cor 12:17, 6:1; et al. Christ isn't shattered into thousands of body parts. His Body is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which He founded c. 30 A.D. JMJ Likos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathgirl Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 That is really cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 [quote name='Katholikos' date='May 21 2004, 06:10 PM'] Dairy Girl: Jesus Christ to his Apostles, the leaders of His Church, about 30 A.D.: [b][i]HE WHO HEARS YOU HEARS ME, AND HE WHO REJECTS YOU REJECTS ME . . .[/i][/b] Luke 10:16 Jesus to Saul of Tarsus: "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting [i][b]me[/b] [/i]?" Saul to Jesus: "Who are you, sir?" The reply came: [i][b]"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."[/b][/i] [b][i][u]Saul was persecuting THE NEWBORN CATHOLIC CHURCH[/u].[/i][/b] (Acts 9:1-6) The Church and Christ are one and the same. Christ is the head. The Church is His Body. Col. 1:15-18, 1:24, 2:19; Eph. 4:4-7; 4:11-16, 1 Cor 12:17, 6:1; et al. Christ isn't shattered into thousands of body parts. His Body is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which He founded c. 30 A.D. JMJ Likos [/quote] Yes Likos is cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonius Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Yeah, dude. You're pretty awesome. I wonder sometimes how there can even be non-catholics on this forum with all the great writers here. Won't they convert sometime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted May 22, 2004 Author Share Posted May 22, 2004 Jason, Bro Adam, littleflower, foundsheep, Ellenita, cathgirl, Antonius, THANK YOU. -_- A.M.D.G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 I may need to copy that arguement Likos, do you mind? It's awesome, btw. Peace. Um Foundsheep....I love your avatar. Dont change it. Shrek is my hero. Ya know, Ogres are like onions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted May 24, 2004 Author Share Posted May 24, 2004 [quote name='Quietfire' date='May 23 2004, 09:00 PM'] I may need to copy that arguement Likos, do you mind? It's awesome, btw. Peace. Um Foundsheep....I love your avatar. Dont change it. Shrek is my hero. Ya know, Ogres are like onions. [/quote] I'd be honored. Plagiarism is the highest form of flattery. Besides, I can't take the credit -- I got it from St. Luke and St. Paul! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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