Tell Them Not

[Papist]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1347946318' post='2483621']
I put it in ‘Debate Table’ so that I can participate in their discussions and thus at the end of the day, after every possible explanations are given and discussed, (I am hoping) it will lead to the truth why Jesus warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

Obviously, knowing its reason is the same as knowing Christ himself because what is the sense of this warning if you do not really know him and why? Thus, it is only logical that Christ shared this secret exclusively to his disciples. Why Jesus warned his disciples is something we have to contemplate in order to test ourselves since to know its secret is to confirm whether our spirits belongs to him or not.

Now, since Cappie (as well as others like Wrede) gave or offered explanations regarding Jesus’ secret, it is only proper to test whether such explanations are inline with the truth presented in the scripture.

You are correct. I do not agree with the reasons presented by Cappie because, (as I have shown you) they are not in accordance with the scripture. So, I will leave it that way.
[/quote]
I do not believe there is an infallible interpretation on this. For the sake of argument, let's say there is. Why should I believe you over cappie? Or cappie over you? or Hank over Alice? Where can I go to get this matter settled?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1347967922' post='2483659']
I do not believe there is an infallible interpretation on this. For the sake of argument, let's say there is. Why should I believe you over cappie? Or cappie over you? or Hank over Alice? Where can I go to get this matter settled?
[/quote]
You know that's what I was getting at on the other thread about which is the true Church. Everyone thinks their religion is the true and only one, and state that we cannot be forgiven if we know the true one but deny it. Even if the Catholic Church is the true one how will people know this especially when they see the participants ranging from hell and brim fire hardcore which is more like Judaism than Christianity right through to modern evangelicals. And then there's the ones that give only lip service and practice all manner of sin through to angelic missionaries etc. All I know is the love of Jesus Christ and I make my allegiance to the Catholic Church not because I think it's perfect because it's not. But because it's there and it's the biggest in my city and it has the best facilities for me to serve my God. I went to East Timor via the Catholic DB Missions because it is the only Christian Church there. I would not have been able to do it otherwise. The Catholic Church has the biggest representation of work in countries whose people are in need. If this means it is the true Church then I suppose it is.

[reyb]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1347965172' post='2483650']
what scripture you reading, reyb? the back of a wheaties box? the scripture I read was divinely inspired and the canon compiled by the Holy Catholic Church. It is perfectly in line with what Cappie stated.


methinks you need a different cereal box
[/quote]


It is easy to say ‘it is’; but proving them is another. You said the reasons given by Cappie are scriptural. If it is true, can you please show them to us? Where in the scripture saying ‘Jesus does not want to die’ or ‘Peter is confused because he is expecting a Messiah who will lead them against Rome but found a martyred one’?

Now, if you see that Cappie’s explanations are truly scriptural then, it is only proper for you to explain them plainly and show where are these ‘reasons’ in the scripture in the same way I explained to you that these reasons are not scriptural because they are nowhere to be found in the scripture.

I want to make it clear. I am not against you or Cappie or anybody. I am simply saying, the reasons presented by Cappie are not scriptural.

Edited September 19, 2012 by reyb

[Groo the Wanderer]

So you are looking for a concordance of the Bible buried within the Bible itself? The Catholic Church was given the authority to teach. That is very clearly stated in the Bible.

Please tell me sir, where in the Bible were YOU given this authority? Or failing that, tell me please sir, where in the Bible it states you are free to interpret scripture however you feel?

Also, so share with us how your meager decades of study at best have somehow revealed more understanding of the scriptures than 2000 years of Church scholarship?

[reyb]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1347967922' post='2483659'] I do not believe there is an infallible interpretation on this. For the sake of argument, let's say there is. Why should I believe you over cappie? Or cappie over you? or Hank over Alice? Where can I go to get this matter settled? [/quote]


If your definition of ‘settling the matters’ is finding a win-win solution as in the case of two opposing political or religious groups. Then, I believe you can possibly have it among your groupings but not in our case because, there is no agreeable position being shared by darkness and light. I am sure you know it too. But what you do not know and maybe you will not believe me, is this: I am not your enemy and I do not even defend my faith against you. I am simply showing you the inaccuracies of your belief because we are all commanded to do it - sharing the truth by showing a brothers’ fault which is done unintentionally and then, I am truly hoping that one day you too will see Christ in the same way witnesses like Apostle Paul saw Him.

Now, if your definition of ‘settling the matters’ is finding solution between two opposing ideas or convictions which you truthfully accepted but nullifying each other then, seeing Christ himself is the only answer – ask, seek and knock the truth from God himself and then, with God’s grace everything will be settled.


[quote name='cappie' timestamp='1347860183' post='2483224'] Sorry but the Gospel from Sunday was mentioned which was from Mark not Matthew. But to answer the question which is sometimes known as the Messianic Secret. ALTHOUGH the disciples had grasped the fact that Jesus was God’s Messiah, they still had not grasped what that great fact meant. To them it meant something totally different from what it meant to Jesus. They were still thinking in terms of a conquering Messiah, a warrior king, who would sweep the Romans from Palestine and lead Israel to power. That is why Jesus commanded them to silence. If they had gone out to the people and preached their own ideas, all they would have succeeded in doing would have been to raise a tragic rebellion; they could have produced only another outbreak of violence doomed to disaster. Before they could preach that Jesus was the Messiah, they had to learn what that meant. In point of fact, Peter’s reaction shows just how far the disciples were from realizing just what Jesus meant when he claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God. This is about the Gospel of Mark, from Sunday [url="http://www.st.ignatius.net/messianicsecret9-17-00.htm"]http://www.st.ignati...cret9-17-00.htm[/url] [/quote]


With due respect to Cappie, I want to give my observations regarding the reasons offered in ‘messianic secret’ from where his second statement (see above post #4) was tightly anchored. He is obviously echoing the theological explanation proposed by Wrede (see [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Secret"]http://en.wikipedia....essianic_Secret[/url]) and the statement made by Fr. Joseph Pellegrino. (see [url="http://www.st.ignatius.net/messianicsecret9-17-00.htm"]http://www.st.ignati...cret9-17-00.htm[/url]) in justifying that Jesus warned his disciples because they are not yet ready to preach about him since they still ‘lacking’ something about his true nature --or in cappies wording ‘Although the disciples had grasped the fact that Jesus was God’s Messiah, they still had not grasped what that great fact meant’

Fr. Joseph Pellegrino says ‘"You cannot understand the Messiah until you understand his suffering" and "You cannot follow Christ unless you unite your own suffering to his to receive eternal life." While Wrede said ‘Jesus’ messianic mission cannot be understood apart from the cross, which the disciples did not yet understand (vs. 31–33 and ch. 9 vs. 30–32).

And because of these reasons, as far as these promoters of ‘Messianic secret’ are concern, Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him because they still do not really know him since his mission is not yet fulfilled.

Thus, I asked in my previous post, ‘How come Peter failed to know the true nature of Jesus (since it is God himself who revealed to Peter who Jesus is)?

Edited September 20, 2012 by reyb

[Papist]

reyb,
You did not answer my question of why should I believe you. You say I have inaccuracies in my beliefs. Why should I believe you? Any text you use to show me is your interpretation of that text. Who gives you the authority to infallibly interpret that text?

[reyb]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1348141602' post='2484621']
reyb,
You did not answer my question of why should I believe you. You say I have inaccuracies in my beliefs. Why should I believe you? Any text you use to show me is your interpretation of that text. Who gives you the authority to infallibly interpret that text?
[/quote]


I intentionally ignore your question - why you should believe me – because you are the one who should answer it and not me. You have your own reasons in every decision you make. So, why do I need to answer it?

Now, if you think I am convincing you to believe me that I am a disciple of Christ just like what you are doing in your group then, you are very wrong. Will you believe me if I tell you that I see Jesus Christ the way Apostle Paul saw Him? So, why then I will ever or even try to convince you? I am not convincing anyone if he does not want to believe me neither I will stop them if they wish because it is immaterial to me whether you accepted me as a true disciple of Christ or not. It will not give me any harm if you will not and it will not give me any better if you will.

Have you not seen any ‘inaccuracy’ in your accepted belief? Be honest, open your eyes and you will see them.

Edited September 20, 2012 by reyb

[Winchester]

[img]http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/21622508.jpg[/img]

[Papist]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1348165734' post='2484679']
I intentionally ignore your question - why you should believe me – because you are the one who should answer it and not me. You have your own reasons in every decision you make. So, why do I need to answer it?

Now, if you think I am convincing you to believe me that I am a disciple of Christ just like what you are doing in your group then, you are very wrong. Will you believe me if I tell you that I see Jesus Christ the way Apostle Paul saw Him? So, why then I will ever or even try to convince you? I am not convincing anyone if he does not want to believe me neither I will stop them if they wish because it is immaterial to me whether you accepted me as a true disciple of Christ or not. It will not give me any harm if you will not and it will not give me any better if you will.

Have you not seen any ‘inaccuracy’ in your accepted belief? Be honest, open your eyes and you will see them.
[/quote]
You have convinced me to not listen to you.[img]http://www.theweirdozone.com/WZForums/images/smilies/ignore.gif[/img]

Edited September 20, 2012 by Papist

[4588686]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1347921645' post='2483459']
You've been snubbed son. When you do a search for [url="https://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=phatmass+phorum&oq=phatmass&gs_l=hp.1.1.0l4.9853.12713.0.15497.8.7.0.1.1.0.345.2008.2-5j2.7.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.KBpMtH5ZwQo&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=c9c725f3227af816&biw=1403&bih=925"]Phatmass forum[/url] it no longer comes up with Reyb. He's been replaced by Hasan.
[/quote]



Excellent

[Groo the Wanderer]

i wanna see reyb go argue with himself. 30 days of posting questions to himself, then pretending to not understand them and refusing to answer.

[reyb]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1348166945' post='2484683']
You have convinced me to not listen to you.[img]http://www.theweirdozone.com/WZForums/images/smilies/ignore.gif[/img]
[/quote]



That is the reason why I previously ignore it because, who cares isn’t it?

Edited September 21, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1348107886' post='2484512']
So you are looking for a concordance of the Bible buried within the Bible itself? The Catholic Church was given the authority to teach. That is very clearly stated in the Bible.

Please tell me sir, where in the Bible were YOU given this authority? Or failing that, tell me please sir, where in the Bible it states you are free to interpret scripture however you feel?

Also, so share with us how your meager decades of study at best have somehow revealed more understanding of the scriptures than 2000 years of Church scholarship?
[/quote]
[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1348182481' post='2484765']
i wanna see reyb go argue with himself. 30 days of posting questions to himself, then pretending to not understand them and refusing to answer.
[/quote]


I answered your questions many times through my previous post. Besides, you are not really asking questions. You are simply telling me that I am wrong and do not have any right whatsoever. Your actions confirm my expectations and it is not unnatural.


Now, since you believe that I am wrong, can you please teach me why Peter did not understand the true nature of Jesus Christ? I am asking because Catholic scholars, and I am assuming it is your position too, says that is the reason why Jesus warned him. You (Catholics in general) are practically saying, ‘God’s revelation is not enough for a man to know the true nature of Christ’. Do you think it is correct?

Edited September 21, 2012 by reyb

[Groo the Wanderer]

you are assuming God revealed 100% knowledge. Nowhere in scripture does it say that. It says He revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. That does not mean Peter knows and understands EVERYTHING about Jesus.

We also know that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. But we sure as heck don;t know and understand EVERYTHING about him either.


But I guess you do, based on your posts?

[reyb]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1348191915' post='2484873']
you are assuming God revealed 100% knowledge. Nowhere in scripture does it say that. It says He revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. That does not mean Peter knows and understands EVERYTHING about Jesus.

We also know that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. But we sure as heck don;t know and understand EVERYTHING about him either.


But I guess you do, based on your posts?
[/quote]


For me, when God reveals that 'Jesus is Christ'. He already reveals everything about Him. Thus, I can say, knowing Him as the only Christ of God is the same as knowing everything about Him.


But for you, it is different. It is not enough for you to know Jesus as the Christ because you want more. Now, if God's revelation is not enough, from whom do you expect to receive what is lacking in knowing Jesus?

Edited September 21, 2012 by reyb