Tell Them Not

[reyb]

Cappie,

You did not answer the question of MissyP89, ‘Why does Jesus say this all the time? (see Catholic Q&A –‘... and He tell them not to tell...’) clearly.

Obviously she is referring to Matt 16:13-23ff and as follows;

[indent=1]When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets." "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"[/indent]

[indent=1]Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."[/indent]

[indent=1]Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." [b]Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ. [/b][/indent]

[indent=1]From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.[/indent]
[indent=1]Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"[/indent]

[indent=1]Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan ! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."[/indent]
[indent=1]NIV[/indent]

...and Cappie, this is your answer –

‘The word Messiah ([i]Christos[/i] in Greek) simply means “anointed one” and is used in the Old Testament to refer to diverse figures such as Saul, David, and Cyrus, the Persian king who allowed the Jews to return from Exile. After the kingdom of Judah fell in 586 BC and the Jews were sent into exile, there was a longing for the restoration of the temple and the political triumph of the Jewish people. The person to fulfil this hope was the “Messiah,” a political figure, a king anointed by God. But the story of the Jews from the exile onward is the story of living under a foreign power, sometimes benevolent and sometimes hostile. By the time of Jesus, the Jewish Messianic longings were reaching a breaking point.

When Peter says “You are the Messiah,” we ought to hear the longing in his voice of centuries of Jewish waiting for political vindication. Peter expects the Messiah to be a king, to conquer the Jews’ foe (this time, Rome) and to re-establish the Jewish kingdom where Jews, and YHWH, would reign. The last thing in the world he would expect is the martyr messiah that Jesus turns out to be. The Jews knew of the suffering servant motif that we read in Isaiah this week, but the suffering servant was something different than the Messiah. So Peter is understandably confused

When Jesus connected Messiahship with suffering and death, he was making statements that were to the disciples both incredible and incomprehensible. All their lives they had thought of the Messiah in terms of irresistible conquest, and they were now being presented with an idea which staggered them. That is why Peter so violently protested. To him the whole thing was impossible.

Why did Jesus so sternly rebuke Peter? Because he was putting into words the very temptations which were assailing Jesus. Jesus did not want to die. He knew that he had powers which he could use for conquest. At this moment he was refighting the battle of temptations in the wilderness. This was the devil tempting him again to fall down and worship him, to take his way instead of God’s way. It is a strange thing, and sometimes a terrible thing, that the tempter sometimes speaks to us in the voice of a well-meaning friend. We may have decided on a course which is the right course but which will inevitably bring trouble, loss, unpopularity, sacrifice. And some well-meaning friend tries with the best intentions in the world, to stop us.

The tempter can make no more terrible attack than in the voice of those who love us and who think they seek only our good. That is what happened to Jesus that day; that is why he answered so sternly. Not even the pleading voice of love must silence for us the imperious voice of God’

------------------------------------
Again, in your above statement, you did not answer the question clearly. The question is [b]‘why Jesus ‘...warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.’? [/b]

Edited September 17, 2012 by reyb

[KnightofChrist]

The answer to this and all your questions is potato ninja llama + 47.

[Mark of the Cross]

Hi Rey!

[cappie]

Sorry but the Gospel from Sunday was mentioned which was from Mark not Matthew. But to answer the question which is sometimes known as the Messianic Secret.

ALTHOUGH the disciples had grasped the fact that Jesus was God’s Messiah, they still had not grasped what that great fact meant. To them it meant something totally different from what it meant to Jesus. They were still thinking in terms of a conquering Messiah, a warrior king, who would sweep the Romans from Palestine and lead Israel to power.

That is why Jesus commanded them to silence. If they had gone out to the people and preached their own ideas, all they would have succeeded in doing would have been to raise a tragic rebellion; they could have produced only another outbreak of violence doomed to disaster. Before they could preach that Jesus was the Messiah, they had to learn what that meant. In point of fact, Peter’s reaction shows just how far the disciples were from realizing just what Jesus meant when he claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God.

This is about the Gospel of Mark, from Sunday [url="http://www.st.ignatius.net/messianicsecret9-17-00.htm"]http://www.st.ignatius.net/messianicsecret9-17-00.htm[/url]

Edited September 17, 2012 by cappie

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1347858681' post='2483222']
Hi Rey!
[/quote]

Hello. Good to hear from you.

[quote name='cappie' timestamp='1347860183' post='2483224']
Sorry but the Gospel from Sunday was mentioned which was from Mark not Matthew. But to answer the question which is sometimes known as the Messianic Secret.

ALTHOUGH the disciples had grasped the fact that Jesus was God’s Messiah, they still had not grasped what that great fact meant. To them it meant something totally different from what it meant to Jesus. They were still thinking in terms of a conquering Messiah, a warrior king, who would sweep the Romans from Palestine and lead Israel to power.

[b]That is why Jesus commanded them to silence. If they had gone out to the people and preached their own ideas[/b], all they would have succeeded in doing would have been to raise a tragic rebellion; they could have produced only another outbreak of violence doomed to disaster. Before they could preach that Jesus was the Messiah, they had to learn what that meant. In point of fact, Peter’s reaction shows just how far the disciples were from realizing just what Jesus meant when he claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God.

This is about the Gospel of Mark, from Sunday [url="http://www.st.ignatius.net/messianicsecret9-17-00.htm"]http://www.st.ignati...cret9-17-00.htm[/url]
[/quote]


Thank you for sharing with us about this ‘Messianic Secret’ (by Wrede).

I was a little bit intrigue when I read your answers to MissP89 because (it seems) you are telling us that Jesus warned his disciples not tell anyone that he was the Christ because of the following reasons: First, Jesus did not want to die (as if he is afraid to die) and second, Peter or Christ’s disciples are confused about Christ or they still do not know what is the true meaning of 'Jesus is Christ',

It seems your justifications are contrary to whatever is written in the scripture.

It is written in John 10:14-18

"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father — and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

So how come Jesus will have that kind of ‘temptation’- Jesus did not want to die (as if he is afraid to die)- if he knows he will live again? He is in full control of it because he said ‘I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again’? Again, where is that ‘temptation’?

You said Peter is confused because he is not expecting a ‘martyred Messiah’ but rather, a political figure or a revolutionary Messiah who will re-establish the Jewish kingdom against Roman Empire. But again, this explanation is not scriptural because it is God himself who revealed to Peter who Jesus is.

It is written in Matt 16:15-17

"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.


How come Peter failed to know the true nature of Jesus and thus become ‘confused’? Or how come Peter will look at Jesus as a political figure since God himself taught him who Jesus is? Are you saying, Peter still do not know the meaning of 'Jesus is Christ' after this revelation (and thus, 'Jesus commanded them to silence....' )?

Can you please explain it further?

Edited September 17, 2012 by reyb

[Papist]

Why is this in the debate table? Reyb, are you looking for an explanation or disagreeing and want a debate?

if the latter, what do you disagree with?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1347892498' post='2483286']
Why is this in the debate table? Reyb, are you looking for an explanation or disagreeing and want a debate?

if the latter, what do you disagree with?
[/quote]

The issue is likely the same issue reyb always has, 'historical Jesus', and how the Christ didn't actually walk upon the earth.

[Papist]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1347909524' post='2483368']
The issue is likely the same issue reyb always has, 'historical Jesus', and how the Christ didn't actually walk upon the earth.
[/quote]
Silly me. I had a momentary lapse of reason.

Continue reyb with your troll'n.

[Socrates]

Oh joy . . . another glorious reyb "debate."


Kind of like boxing with a patch of fog.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1347917378' post='2483416']
Oh joy . . . another glorious reyb "debate."


Kind of like boxing with a patch of fog.
[/quote]
I bet reyb likes government. You don't want to be like reyb, do you?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1347919885' post='2483446']
[/quote]
You've been snubbed son. When you do a search for [url="https://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=phatmass+phorum&oq=phatmass&gs_l=hp.1.1.0l4.9853.12713.0.15497.8.7.0.1.1.0.345.2008.2-5j2.7.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.KBpMtH5ZwQo&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=c9c725f3227af816&biw=1403&bih=925"]Phatmass forum[/url] it no longer comes up with Reyb. He's been replaced by Hasan.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1347919885' post='2483446']
I bet reyb likes government. You don't want to be like reyb, do you?
[/quote]
I heard he was an anarchist with a big grody beard and afro.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1347921745' post='2483460']
I heard he was an anarchist with a big grody beard and afro.
[/quote]
You heard wrong, statist.

[reyb]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1347892498' post='2483286']
Why is this in the debate table? Reyb, are you looking for an explanation or disagreeing and want a debate?

if the latter, what do you disagree with?
[/quote]


I put it in ‘Debate Table’ so that I can participate in their discussions and thus at the end of the day, after every possible explanations are given and discussed, (I am hoping) it will lead to the truth why Jesus warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

Obviously, knowing its reason is the same as knowing Christ himself because what is the sense of this warning if you do not really know him and why? Thus, it is only logical that Christ shared this secret exclusively to his disciples. Why Jesus warned his disciples is something we have to contemplate in order to test ourselves since to know its secret is to confirm whether our spirits belongs to him or not.

Now, since Cappie (as well as others like Wrede) gave or offered explanations regarding Jesus’ secret, it is only proper to test whether such explanations are inline with the truth presented in the scripture.

You are correct. I do not agree with the reasons presented by Cappie because, (as I have shown you) they are not in accordance with the scripture. So, I will leave it that way.

Edited September 18, 2012 by reyb

[Groo the Wanderer]

what scripture you reading, reyb? the back of a wheaties box? the scripture I read was divinely inspired and the canon compiled by the Holy Catholic Church. It is perfectly in line with what Cappie stated.


methinks you need a different cereal box