Saw Something Interesting That Actually Made Me Think.

[LinaSt.Cecilia2772]

I didn't really know where to put this thread, so I just put it here. If the mods think it needs to be moved then that's perfectly fine.

I was on Facebook today, and I follow Mark Hart, who is a very faithful Catholic, Speaker, and Vice President of Lifeteen. He posts some pretty amesome stuff, but one post got my particular attention.

http://www.facebook.com/MarkHart99

[quote] You might be tempted to think that you've sinned too much for God to forgive you, but that's a lie.

NO sin is greater than God's mercy. The only sin God can't forgive is the one you don't ask forgiveness for. Run to Him. [/quote]

This post got me thinking because of the situation of excommunication because of sin. I know God loves all of us unconditionally, but is there a separation between the Church and God because of excommunication? I'm so confused at how endless love and mercy and total excommunication from the church and God can exist at the same time.

Yes, I know people have free will to make the choices they do, including mortal sins, and they also have the free will to ask for the forgiveness and come back in full Communion with the Church. But even though they have the choice, doesn't God still Love them and want them to hopefully make amends and come back to Him through the Church and the Sacraments? And isn't God the judge of whether they are fully separated from Him or not?

I don't want anyone to think that I don't agree with the Church, but I'm really puzzled, and from a lack of understanding I want to know what everyone thinks on this issue, especially the clergy and religious on Phatmass. I'm not even sure if this is a legitimate issue, but it's something that has been bugging me all day.

[PhuturePriest]

Excommunication does not mean you are damned to Hell, nor does it mean you have committed a Mortal sin of any kind. Technically, you can be excommunicated and still get to Heaven. You simply have lost the sacraments and God's Church to help you do so much more easily. It is of course very bad to be excommunicated, but excommunication is not a Mortal sin. This is what I was taught, anyway. I'm sure it's imperfect somewhere and I am open to learning more about it, especially if this means correction since I obviously don't want to teach false things.

[LinaSt.Cecilia2772]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1347580815' post='2482160']
Excommunication does not mean you are damned to Hell, nor does it mean you have committed a Mortal sin of any kind. Technically, you can be excommunicated and still get to Heaven. You simply have lost the sacraments and God's Church to help you do so much more easily. It is of course very bad to be excommunicated, but excommunication is not a Mortal sin. This is what I was taught, anyway. I'm sure it's imperfect somewhere and I am open to learning more about it, especially if this means correction since I obviously don't want to teach false things.
[/quote]

Well I never said that excommunication itself is a mortal sin. I said that excommunication happens because of mortal sin.

But what confuses me is that from what I've read, an excommunicated Christian is considered an exile in Christian society, and I don't understand how that can show someone the Love of God and help correct them and bring them back to the Church. Here's the link to what I've read.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

[CatholicCid]

LinaSt.Cecilia2772,

When discussing excommunications, I always find it helpful to look at them as a form of [i]tough love[/i] from the Church. According to the NewAdvent article you linked to, excommunication is a form of penalty. But, "it is also a medicinal rather than a vindictive penalty, being intended, not so much to punish the culprit, as to correct him and bring him back to the path of righteousness." An excommunication is almost like a wake-up call, showing you that you have committed a grievous sin, have separated yourself from God, and must ask forgiveness to return to your relationship with Him. The point of an excommunication is to call someone back to the Church.

The love of God is endless and He desires that all are united to Him and, in times of sin, that we seek out His mercy. But, He will not force His love upon us. If we choose to break from Him, He will call us back, He will make us aware of our sin, but He will not "force" His forgiveness upon us. If we freely choose to be separated from Him, He will allow us to be so. His love is that endless. His love allows us to even exile ourselves from Him, even though He does not want us to be exiles, but His children.

To answer your questions directly:

[i]But even though they have the choice, doesn't God still Love them and want them to hopefully make amends and come back to Him through the Church and the Sacraments? [/i]
Yes, God still loves them and wants them to return. He wants them to return, most specifically through the Sacrament of Confession, where they can seek out God's forgiveness and return to communion with Him. Someone who is excommunicated is still able to avail themselves to the Sacrament of Confession; that is generally how an excommunication is lifted.
The reason that a person is "exiled" from the Church and, specifically, the other Sacraments during the time of excommunication, however, is for their own good. As St. Paul tells us, taking communion while in mortal sin is harmful to oneself (1 Cor 11:23-29). If an excommunicated person were to receive, they would only be harming themselves more as they would receive the Eucharist while in mortal sin.
Not being able to receive the other Sacraments can also serve as a reminder for what is missing in their lives. Not being able to receive the Eucharist, not being able to enter into communion with Him because of their own sin, will hopefully prick at their conscience and make them realize what they are truly missing. And, this recognition can in turn flame the desire to return to this communion, this union with God, at which point they would be willing to ask God's forgiveness for their sin and return to the Church through the Sacrament of Confession.

[i]And isn't God the judge of whether they are fully separated from Him or not?[/i]
Yes, God is the judge. But, He has given His Church the authority to act in such matters (Matthew 18:18). In the end, God knows the true intention of the heart. But, He has also provided His Church to help guide us. The Church has the duty and mission to lead us to salvation. And, at times, that duty includes the [i]tough love[/i] approach, which gives us the ultimatum, in a sense, to either rectify our situation or choose to remain separated from God. It makes God's grace available for us to return, but we must be willing to return, to seek out forgiveness.


And it's a very good question to ask. At times, an excommunication can seem such a cold thing. It's almost as if it's attempting to push us farther away from God. With a proper understanding, however, it becomes clear how an excommunication is actually an act of love, calling out and pleading for the excommunicated to return home while also trying to prevent them from harming themselves further.

I hope this helps a little and I would be happy to try and clarify it more if necessary. Also, there are many greater scholars than I who can hopefully chime in and offer clearer and more precise responses. You can also always post in the Ask a Scholar forum ([url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/forum/13-catholic-qa-ask-a-scholar/"]http://www.phatmass....-ask-a-scholar/[/url])

Edited September 14, 2012 by CatholicCid