A Refutation Of This Proof

[Antonius]

Amen, jasJis and Oik! You have both said what is in my heart, what I could not say. Praise God! Thank you for your insight and superb communication skills. :banana:

Edited May 23, 2004 by Antonius

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Oik' date='May 22 2004, 07:42 PM']Jason, it is correct to say that evil opposes good. However, God is eternally victorious. Satan is defeated and wounded. This is why evil cannot be "opposite" of God (or good). Evil is the distortion of good because God is good. There is nothing for satan to be "opposite" of.

Look at it like this: God Creates and only he has that power. Satan cannot create, only mock and distort. Name something that is "evil" and it will prove this point.

Abortion=murder of life
Contraception=sterility of the marital union
Rape=physical violence of the loving embrace[/quote]
[quote]Jason, it is correct to say that evil opposes good. However, God is eternally victorious. Satan is defeated and wounded.This is why evil cannot be "opposite" of God (or good).  [/quote]

This statement conflicts itself one minute you say good opposes evil, than you say evil cannot be opposite, they are basically the same thing.


To mock means to make fun of something to turn it around. Devil worshipers turn crucifixes upside down say things backwards. Now what is that doing? The opposite!

Now God can do anything He wants we all know that! He permits evil to bring out a greater good.

Their is still conflict, the devil does mock God and do everything opposite He commands us to do and temps us like crazy to carry it out.

We have a Spiritual Battle this cannot be denied unless YOU want to say their is no sin "to say there is no battle between good and evil is just like saying there is no sin". To have War or a Battle you have to have two kingdoms, nations, fighting against each other. All the Wars in history are what? To either take over and control or to fight "to keep freedom".

Do you get what I am saying?
I agree evil is a distortion of good, but they still go against each other in Our Spiritual Battle.

Pax
Jason

[Katholikos]

Kiel,

I recommend you get a copy of (1) [i]Mere Christianity,[/i] (2) [i]The Problem of Pain.[/i]

Both are by C.S. Lewis. He was an atheist (from England), became an Anglican. No Catholic pressure in Lewis's books. Oxford scholar. He's logical and brilliant.

After you read them, give them to your brother.

The [i]Problem of Pain[/i] deals with the concern about suffering. The logic is exquisite.

I also recommend Mortimer Adler's [i]How To Think About God[/i]. But it's hard to find, out of print.

Mortimer Adler is (or was? he may have passed on) the most influential American philosopher of the 20th century. Taught philosophy at U Chicago. Co-founder of the Great Books Program. Founder of the Aspen Institute. Founder of another philosophy think tank in San Francisco. He became a Catholic at the age of 97 in December, 1999. He wanted to die in the arms of the Church, having taught the philosophy of Thomas Aquinas all his adult life.

JMJ Likos

[jasJis]

Jason,
So we can get on the same page understanding each other, read the section of the Catechism I referred to and let me know if any of that leads you to believe God created Evil.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='jasJis' date='May 22 2004, 10:13 PM'] Jason,
So we can get on the same page understanding each other, read the section of the Catechism I referred to and let me know if any of that leads you to believe God created Evil. [/quote]
I agree with you on that my brother! I know God did not make evil. We do evil God cannot "who is good but God alone." I agree with part of your guys' theory.

Just not the part where Evil and Good are Opposed some say they can't I say they are. They have to be. I know God did not create evil, Evil is done by man, and there is an "evil one" who is at the bottom of it all. God would not have to create evil in order for it to be opposed to Him.

My point is there is a Spiritual Battle between Good and Evil. If there where just different degrees of good than there would be no sin. Evil is sin if you sin it is evil because it offends God.

Do you see my point?

God Bless You
Jason

[point5]

thanks Katholikos I will get both those CS lewis ones most likely

-Moses the Black

[jasJis]

[quote name='Jason' date='May 22 2004, 10:25 PM'] My point is there is a Spiritual Battle between Good and Evil. If there where just different degrees of good than there would be no sin. Evil is sin if you sin it is evil because it offends God.

Do you see my point? [/quote]
Ah, Yes! I do see your point clearly now.

I agree with you on at a certain level, but I think it's more semantics where we difer to a point.

Only God can create out of nothing. No other power exists that can do this. Evil cannot be created because only God can create and He does not create Evil because He is All Good.

So does that mean Evil does not exist? Evil is not created from nothingness by anypower. What we call Evil is not a creation, by only a warping or disording of what has been already created by the One Creator. Evil can only be the corruption of Good. The corruption can occur when we choose to turn what is created (our selves, our souls, and the physical world) away from the Perfection and Illumination of God the Creator. God created the Apple in Eden. The Apple was not Evil unless we turned from God in disobedience and ate the Apple. Adam and Eve corrupted the Apple of God's creation with their disobedience. That brought the origianl corruption (original sin) into the Perfect World of God's creation.

I agree with you that Evil is not just a diminshment of Good, but a corruption of what WAS Good. Evil is not created by God, but a corruption of what was already created.

[cmotherofpirl]

"The Devil is not Evil created, but a Loved Creature that runs from All That Is Good (God) and is Creature that is Diminshed in Good. "


Jas the devil is far worse than a creature "diminished" in good. That is the point Jason is trying to make. The evil one is activiely seeking our downfall on a daily basis:

2851 In this petition, evil is not an abstraction, but refers to a person, Satan, the Evil One, the angel who opposes God. the devil (dia-bolos) is the one who "throws himself across" God's plan and his work of salvation accomplished in Christ.

2852 "A murderer from the beginning, . . . a liar and the father of lies," Satan is "the deceiver of the whole world."165 Through him sin and death entered the world and by his definitive defeat all creation will be "freed from the corruption of sin and death."166 Now "we know that anyone born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one."167

[jasJis]

CMom,
You're right. Read my prior post. It's my clumsy word usage. I'm trying to make the point that Evil is not created in the same way that God created all the Universe, but a corruption of what was created by God that is corrupted by turning it away from God's intended purpose. I guess 'diminshment' is a poor choice. "Corruption" is much better word that occured to me when I was responding to Jason.

This was a good thread. It really helped crystalize some thoughts and feelings about Evil in the world that have been rattling around in my brain.

[cmotherofpirl]

Yep this is a great thread, it makes you really sit down and think. The only way we get it right is to keep posting and refining our thoughts to get it exactly right.

[Quietfire]

[quote]EVIL: The opposite or absence of good. One form of evil, physical evil, is a result of the "state of journeying" toward its ultimate perfection in which God created the world, involving the existence of the less perfect alongside the more perfect, the constructive and the destructive forces of nature, the appearance and disappearance of certain beings (310). Moral evil, however, results from the free choice to sin which angels and men have; it is permitted by God, who knows how to derive good from it, in order to respect the freedom of his creatures (311). The entire revelation of God's goodness in Christ is a response to the existence of evil (309, 385, 1707). The devil is called the Evil One. See Devil/Demon.[/quote]

from the CCC