A Refutation Of This Proof

[Antonius]

Oh, mos def, Aloyisius. And that's life. Words are imperfect in themselves, they're symbols. And we all don't have perfect communication skills. It's a challenge to try and really listen to someone, to really understand what they mean. Sometimes we all try to "one up" the other guy. It'sa challenge every day to try to keep a cool, honest head.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]Augustine proves that there is no evil. Evil does not exist. There is only lack of good. The ultimate good is God. He is Truth, which is Good. He is. What we call "evil" or "bad" is actually just lack of good.[/quote]
Resources please.


[quote]But even the devil is not pure evil, because evil does not exist, only lack of good. Picture the devil as having the smallest shred of goodness. This is because he was one of the top angels, knew a lot about God's plan, and God created him. "God created it and it was good."[/quote]


"Our Father who art in Heaven
Hallowed be Thy Name
Thy Kingdom come
Thy Will be done
On earth as it is in Heaven
Gives us this day our daily bread
and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those who trespass against us
and lead us not into temptation but deliver us
from [b]evil[/b]" or translated from the Greek [b]"evil one"[/b]

Jesus Himself JUST IN THIS PRAYER that He taught us to pray, says that there is evil.
To say there is no evil is wrong, thats like saying there is no sin?

Please make clear your statements

God Bless You
In Christ
Jason

[p0lar_bear]

dUst,

How does your definition of "bad" differ from something being a "lesser good"?

For example, ontologically speaking a cat is a lesser good than a human person. The fact that the cat is lesser, doesn't make it bad. The human person (even Adam and Eve before the Fall) is a lesser good than God, but the human person was not created bad.

The entire created world is inferior to God. However, when He created He said "it is good."

I just don't see how your definition of "bad" as "inferior to good" holds up.



There is an inherent hierarchy in creation. So with creation the concepts of "inferior" and "superior" came into being, so to speak. But the existence of that hierarchy doesn't explain the existence of suffering. After all, there was a hierarchy in the Garden of Eden before suffering entered the world.



Jason,

I think Antonius is trying to explain evil as a privation (or lack) of goodness, just as cold is actually a privation of heat. It is actually a valid understanding of good and evil. If Antonius doesn't come back with some cites, I will. I'm not sure his understanding is accurate, but the general concept is acceptable.

edit: Try the Confessions, book 3, chapter 7

Edited May 22, 2004 by p0lar_bear

[Antonius]

Eyo! Thanks for the back-up, polar bear! I apologize for the "informalness" of my post, as I was writing it from memory of philosophy class earlier this year. That whole thing about the devil is something that I made up in my own head, not something Augustine wrote. I was trying ot understand his philosophy, so I tried to fit the devil in there in my own "logic", so you can disregard that.

However, St. Augustine made great leaps in bounds in philosophy and theology, becoming the biggest Christian theologian since Paul himself.

[url="http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/apologetics/evil/augustin.htm"]This site here is an a pretty big article pointing out Augustine's proofs and such on the "Problem of Evil."[/url]

[url="http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_1/enchiridion.html"]Here's St. Augustine in his own words (translated from Latin of course.) It's a little hard to understand at first.[/url]

[url="http://www.faithnet.org.uk/AS%20Subjects/Philosophyofreligion/Notes/astheodicyrevisionnotes.htm"]Here's a site from faithnet.org. It coveres the whole "Problem of Evil" debate, also called Theodicy. I don't know if Faithnet,org is faithful to Holy Mother Church and the Magisterium, but this page seems pretty legit, since it's about philosophy.[/url]

Those are a good number of articles for now, and I also suggest to anyone that's interested to do some of their own research. Asking a philosophy professor or a priest would point you in the right direction. Priests take philosophy classes in the seminary, I'm sure.

Just remember, that "evil" is a shorthand term for what is actually the depreivation of good, or a lesser good getting more love than its worth.

Augustine also said that sin happens when we love something more than it should be loved, or if we don't give proper love to something that should be loved. "Evil" exists, as Jason pointed out with The Pater Noster. However, philosophically speaking, St. Augustine, a Doctor of the Church, reasoned that "evil" cannot exist, as it's actually a "hole in goodness".

Roight, I've got to go now and help clean the house for my graduation party tomorrow. Have fun with the philosophy! Thanks so much for everything!

Polar Bear, please bring your wisdom to this debate, as mine alone is woefully insufficient.

God bless!

[Livin_the_MASS]

I am a big fan of father John Corpi, he teaches on good and evil and the war between the two all the time!

To say that these two sources don't exit is crazy to me, or I mean the one, if there was no evil just different degress of good than there would be no battle.


There has to be two opposite forces against each other:

[quote][b]Matthew 12: 24-30[/b]

But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "This man drives out demons only by the power of Beelzebul, the prince of demons."

But he knew what they were thinking and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and no town or house divided against itself will stand.

And if Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand?

And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your own people drive them out? Therefore they will be your judges.

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

How can anyone enter a strong man's house and steal his property, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.[/quote]

It is clear here that our Lord speaks of two opposite forces "good and evil"
If it is just lower degress of good that would not be possiable. Yes God is good and everything He created is good, but we make the choice to be evil or sin.

This is very odd to me? It doesn't add up?

Pax
Jason

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote][b]CCC

VI. "And Lead Us not into Temptation"

2846 This petition goes to the root of the preceding one, for our sins result from our consenting to temptation; we therefore ask our Father not to "lead" us into temptation. It is difficult to translate the Greek verb used by a single English word: the Greek means both "do not allow us to enter into temptation" and "do not let us yield to temptation."150 "God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one";151 on the contrary, he wants to set us free from evil. We ask him not to allow us to take the way that leads to sin. We are engaged in the battle "between flesh and spirit"; this petition implores the Spirit of discernment and strength.

2847 The Holy Spirit makes us discern between trials, which are necessary for the growth of the inner man,152 and temptation, which leads to sin and death.153 We must also discern between being tempted and consenting to temptation. Finally, discernment unmasks the lie of temptation, whose object appears to be good, a "delight to the eyes" and desirable,154 when in reality its fruit is death.
God does not want to impose the good, but wants free beings.... There is a certain usefulness to temptation. No one but God knows what our soul has received from him, not even we ourselves. But temptation reveals it in order to teach us to know ourselves, and in this way we discover our evil inclinations and are obliged to give thanks for the goods that temptation has revealed to us.155

2848 "Lead us not into temptation" implies a decision of the heart: "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.... No one can serve two masters."156 "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."157 In this assent to the Holy Spirit the Father gives us strength. "No testing has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, so that you may be able to endure it."158

2849 Such a battle and such a victory become possible only through prayer. It is by his prayer that Jesus vanquishes the tempter, both at the outset of his public mission and in the ultimate struggle of his agony.159 In this petition to our heavenly Father, Christ unites us to his battle and his agony. He urges us to vigilance of the heart in communion with his own. Vigilance is "custody of the heart," and Jesus prayed for us to the Father: "Keep them in your name."160 The Holy Spirit constantly seeks to awaken us to keep watch.161 Finally, this petition takes on all its dramatic meaning in relation to the last temptation of our earthly battle; it asks for final perseverance. "Lo, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is he who is awake."162

VII "BUT DELIVER US FROM EVIL"

2850 The last petition to our Father is also included in Jesus' prayer: "I am not asking you to take them out of the world, but I ask you to protect them from the evil one."163 It touches each of us personally, but it is always "we" who pray, in communion with the whole Church, for the deliverance of the whole human family. the Lord's Prayer continually opens us to the range of God's economy of salvation. Our interdependence in the drama of sin and death is turned into solidarity in the Body of Christ, the "communion of saints."164

2851 In this petition, evil is not an abstraction, but refers to a person, Satan, the Evil One, the angel who opposes God. the devil (dia-bolos) is the one who "throws himself across" God's plan and his work of salvation accomplished in Christ.

2852 "A murderer from the beginning, . . . a liar and the father of lies," Satan is "the deceiver of the whole world."165 Through him sin and death entered the world and by his definitive defeat all creation will be "freed from the corruption of sin and death."166 Now "we know that anyone born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one."167

The Lord who has taken away your sin and pardoned your faults also protects you and keeps you from the wiles of your adversary the devil, so that the enemy, who is accustomed to leading into sin, may not surprise you. One who entrusts himself to God does not dread the devil. "If God is for us, who is against us?"168

2853 Victory over the "prince of this world"169 was won once for all at the Hour when Jesus freely gave himself up to death to give us his life. This is the judgment of this world, and the prince of this world is "cast out."170 "He pursued the woman"171 but had no hold on her: the new Eve, "full of grace" of the Holy Spirit, is preserved from sin and the corruption of death (the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Most Holy Mother of God, Mary, ever virgin). "Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring."172 Therefore the Spirit and the Church pray: "Come, Lord Jesus,"173 since his coming will deliver us from the Evil One.

2854 When we ask to be delivered from the Evil One, we pray as well to be freed from all evils, present, past, and future, of which he is the author or instigator. In this final petition, the Church brings before the Father all the distress of the world. Along with deliverance from the evils that overwhelm humanity, she implores the precious gift of peace and the grace of perseverance in expectation of Christ's return By praying in this way, she anticipates in humility of faith the gathering together of everyone and everything in him who has "the keys of Death and Hades," who "is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."174

Deliver us, Lord, we beseech you, from every evil and grant us peace in our day, so that aided by your mercy we might be ever free from sin and protected from all anxiety, as we await the blessed hope and the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.175[/b][/quote]

I'll stick with the CCC teaching

Pax
Jason

[Oik]

First off, the idea in christianity of good versus evil is almost a dualistic and certainly GNOSTIC view. Good is God and "evil" or "bad" or what ever is the chosing of the lesser good or not choosing good. We don't nee "bad" to understand good. This is why:

Truth is not relative (Truth is, hence I Am Who Am). Facts change, but not Truth.
Also, God doesn't need "bad" or what ever to exist for Himself to be understood. God needs nothing.

Dust, as a matter of Truth, God said that all creation is good. Gen 1:31.
:ninja vanish: :ph34r:

[Quietfire]

I was just having a 'gentile' debate on this subject with my sis today.

She started the conversation with "HIV...do you think it's a judgement of God?"

My response was a flat "No."

She looked at me and said, "gee, I'm surprised by your answer"

Me.... by making that statement you are saying that God creates evil, or something bad. That isnt possible, because God is all good.
Man creates evil simply by the free will choices we make. God allows evil to exist (in HIV?) because he also allows free will.

If everyone knows that HIV is evil then why does it exist still? If we abstained from sex outside of marriage. Used condoms, didnt share needles, taught safe sex, cared for those infected, and focused on finding a cure. Then yes, one day hopefully, if it is His Will, there will be no more AIDS.
But unfortunately, people continue to have unsafe sex, by free will
People continue to share needles, by free will.
People refuse to use condoms outside of marriage, by free will
and because of that (free will) and our choices as such, HIV and AIDS will continue.
From this evil, how many have come into the fold of God? How many have thanked him for allowing them the chance to know him better?

Or how many have shaken thier fists and cried, "My God, why have you done this to me?" How many have blamed God for their suffering?

The conversation went on, but I told her that if I contracted AIDs and died, that would be a trajedy.
But if I contracted AIDs and sought out God, thanked him for the opportunity to know him better,thanked and praised him for my suffering as a penance for MY sins, and asked that he make me pure through my suffering so that I may one day look upon his face...
as a result I no longer engage in sexual relations or spread the evil of the disease, accept that it is his will and that I will do his Will until he chooses the day of my being called home, and while waiting would do His Work, educating those so that no one else need suffer.
Then would that not aid in my ultimate salvation?
It isnt a guarantee, because my actions must be pure, and in only to praise God and exhalt His name through Christ. But never blame God for your situation, since you made it of your own free will, thank God for the gift of your decision, since it bought you closer to Him.


I dont know if she still thinks that its a judgement, I only hope she realizes that 'God dont play that game.' He who is all good and just, cannot and will not do evil. He may allow it, but thats a different thing altogether.

And I'm sure if I messed up with my analogy, one of my pham will show me the way.

Peace all.

[Antonius]

As always, i'm not a priest, so what I say may be wrong, but here goes...

Yeah, Jason, God already won the battle. There is no supernatual battle between demons and angels. God already beat the devil, Jesus already conquered death and sin. The real battle is with us and our temptations.

The devil distorts things and lies to us, we believe some lies and we love some things greater than others.

Adam and Eve placed the love they had for themselves to be like God when they ate the fruit. The love of God and serving Him comes first.

Yes, Jason, as the Catechism and the Bible states, there is "evil" in this world. But what we call "evil" is actually just a lesser good, philosophically speaking. We still use the word evil, so does the Church, that's why it's in the Catechism. I'm not saying there is no Satan and no demons and no hell and no temptation. I simply wanted to show that the devil has no power to even begin to fight God. Sin happens when we get our "vetical alignment" out of order, when we choose a lesser good over the Greatest Good which is God.

We must love God with all we've got! When we take even a shred of that love that's supposed to be for God and we put it somewhere else, we're sinning, we're creating "evil", when in fact, we're loving a lesser good, which is SOOOOO WRONG.

Visions of angels and demons fighting is great for comic books and video games, but in reality, God is INFINITE and ALL POWERFUL. Satan has no power. Only when we give into his lies so that we might "do our own thing" as opposed to God's plan does he ever have "power".

Jesus calls us to be selfless, to give all we've got to God, and then to His people.

Satan deceives us into being selfish, to loving only what we want.

I hope I'm making myself a little clearer. I'm not a formal debater. As always, if I have any error, please inform me. I'm not a priest, just an 18 year old high school grad waiting to go to college next year. The last thing I want to be is a heretic.

Pax vobiscum! Ciao, everyone.

Edited May 22, 2004 by Antonius

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Antonius' date='May 22 2004, 02:16 PM'] As always, i'm not a priest, so what I say may be wrong, but here goes...

Yeah, Jason, God already won the battle.  There is no supernatual battle between demons and angels.  God already beat the devil, Jesus already conquered death and sin.  The real battle is with us and our temptations.

The devil distorts things and lies to us, we believe some lies and we love some things greater than others.

Adam and Eve placed the love they had for themselves to be like God when they ate the fruit.  The love of God and serving Him comes first.

Yes, Jason, as the Catechism and the Bible states, there is "evil" in this world.  But what we call "evil" is actually just a lesser good, philosophically speaking.  We still use the word evil, so does the Church, that's why it's in the Catechism.  I'm not saying there is no Satan and no demons and no hell and no temptation.  I simply wanted to show that the devil has no power to even begin to fight God.  Sin happens when we get our "vetical alignment" out of order, when we choose a lesser good over the Greatest Good which is God.

We must love God with all we've got!  When we take even a shred of that love that's supposed to be for God and we put it somewhere else, we're sinning, we're creating "evil", when in fact, we're loving a lesser good, which is SOOOOO WRONG.

Visions of angels and demons fighting is great for comic books and video games, but in reality, God is INFINITE and ALL POWERFUL.  Satan has no power.  Only when we give into his lies so that we might "do our own thing" as opposed to God's plan does he ever have "power".

Jesus calls us to be selfless, to give all we've got to God, and then to His people.

Satan deceives us into being selfish, to loving only what we want.

I hope I'm making myself a little clearer.  I'm not a formal debater.  As always, if I have any error, please inform me.  I'm not a priest, just an 18 year old high school grad waiting to go to college next year.    The last thing I want to be is a heretic.

Pax vobiscum!  Ciao, everyone. [/quote]
No brother it's cool this is a debate table we ALL learn and talk

I read some of your links, but I went to the CCC and it says there is evil and an "evil one".

The Scripture Reference I gave above tells you of the battle. Yes God is the source of all good for "Who is good but God alone."

But anything that goes against good is evil. I hope you read the CCC I gave I know it's a little long I try not to paste stuff to long but I felt that whole section covered this discussion well.

We do the evil, using "our free wills". God permits evil to happen for His reason and purpose. But it happens through our choices.

Don't forgert brother no one is judging you, we are talking

God Bless You
Jason

[cmotherofpirl]

God is the ultimate Good.
Because this ultimate Good permits free will so that there is the opportunity for the choice for real love, there is also the possibility of evil.

Evil is always a distortion of good, it is derivative, not original.

The system was not set up to have opposing forces, it is the result of free will, it was not set up that way.

[Cmom's cheeky daughter adds this: Evil is like a parasite on good. The good has always been there. The evil, through the means of free will*, simply distorts/perverts the good to its own ends. Evil isn't a necessary part of existance in the same way that the parasite isn't necessary for the host to live, but the host is necessary for the parasite. Evil can't exist without good, but good can exist without evil.

*Evil presumably began shortly after God allowed his creatures free will. God (who I'm guessing is a logical fellow), wouldn't make a force that existed purely to be contrary all the stuff he'd already made and liked. So, it must have been the things that he gave the free will to that chose it to be so, for whatever self-interested reasons.

In short, God didn't make evil. He gave us the means, and then we made it. Cause we smell of elderberries.

On the subject of two-opposing-forces: this line of thought seems to suggest that both good and evil are things God made (not so). For two equal and opposite opposing forces to be conceivable, either

a.) the evil would have had to come in to being at the same time and independantly of the Good. And, as stated above, that ain't how it is. Especially because nothing can make itself.

b.)God couldn't even have [i]made[/i] a force opposite of himself, either - he couldn't make evil, because he'd thereby be [i]doing[/i] evil, contradicting his good self.

So the theory of two opposing forces doesn't work.

- cmom's cheeky daughter.]

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]On the subject of two-opposing-forces: this line of thought seems to suggest that both good and evil are things God made (not so). For two equal and opposite opposing forces to be conceivable, either[/quote]

Then why does He say a kingdom cannot be divided against itself. That doesn't mean God created evil I never said that and two forces against each other doesnt say that either. Satan made his own choice of pride his punishment was hell for his pride, Satan knows his time is short, he is fighting!

He has angelic powers so we need Gods help to conquer over him and his temptations Say the Our Father and this will be made clear.

At the very end we ask Our Heavenly Father to deliver us from the "evil one"

There is a battle of good and evil, it's been taught for years

[jasJis]

It's much simpler than that.

Good is.

Evil isn't Good.

There's not really a 'lesser' Good, but the state where our choices causes the [i]diminshment[/i] of the existence of Good. That ability to cause the Diminshment of Good is a gift given to us by God. The HIV example is great. No matter what Diminshment of Good happens because of a consequence of our sin (or somebody else's) is really only a Diminshement of Good. If we turn to God, for Grace and Help, we turn to the Source of All Good to fill that Diminshment with Good again. That's how bad things happen to good people, but people's response greatly affects the situation and outcome. That's how kids with HIV can also be loving sources of Grace and good hope to their families and others. Evil isn't as much an existence against Good as it's a state that Good is Diminshed. Evil is permitted by God, because He doesn't force His will on us. Evil is not created by God in order to contrast His Good. Evil seems to highlight Good becase humans are better at acknowledging what we once had and lost. The Devil is not Evil created, but a Loved Creature that runs from All That Is Good (God) and is Creature that is Diminshed in Good. Powerful in some respects, yes! But ultimately weak and helpless in face of Real Existence.

Go back and read my earlier post and then read the Catechism, starting at Paragraph 279 (I think) about God creating the world, etc. Nothing exists that was not created by God but God permits His absence so that we may either chose to be with Him or chose not to. When we begin to comprehend how Evil warps what God created, we see how it disorders His creation.

Edited May 22, 2004 by jasJis

[Livin_the_MASS]

jasJis,

What up my brother peace of Christ be with you!

Two things I have to ask.

[quote][b]jasJis says:[/b]
The Devil is not Evil created[/quote]

I agree that lucifer was not created evil, it was his free choice to put himself as a god that made him evil, number one he is angelic, he knows God as He is and still made the choice to deny Him and put himself above God.

Now for your whole statement

[quote][b]jasJis says:[/b]
The Devil is not Evil created, [u]but a Loved Creature that runs from All That Is Good (God) and is Creature that is Diminshed in Good.[/u] [/quote]

I would have to disagree why? Well in:

[quote][b]Genesis 3:9-15[/b]

The LORD God then called to the man and asked him, "Where are you?"

He answered, "I heard you in the garden; but I was afraid, because I was naked, so I hid myself."

Then he asked, "Who told you that you were naked? You have eaten, then, from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat!"

The man replied, "The woman whom you put here with me--she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate it."

The LORD God then asked the woman, "Why did you do such a thing?" The woman answered, "The serpent tricked me into it, so I ate it."

Then the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, you shall be banned from all the animals and from all the wild creatures; On your belly shall you crawl, and dirt shall you eat all the days of your life.

[b]I will put [u]enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers;[/u] He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."[/b] [/quote]

[b]Enmity: the attitude of feelings of an enemy or enemies; hostility.[/b]

Now the way you explain it is almost as if God and Satan are working together side by side "so to speak". God threw Satan out of heaven and in Rev. it tells you what is going to happen to him and all who follow his evil ways.

Good and evil are opposite, they oppose each other. Because if we sin say a mortal sin if we would die without confessing that sin with a contrite heart we would go to hell and that is opposing the Will of God.

He desires the salvation of souls, and Satan is working against that, he wants to take as many down with him as he can. Therefore there is a Spiritual War EVERDAY!

God Bless You brother
In the love of Christ
Jason

[Oik]

Jason, it is correct to say that evil opposes good. However, God is eternally victorious. Satan is defeated and wounded. This is why evil cannot be "opposite" of God (or good). Evil is the distortion of good because God is good. There is nothing for satan to be "opposite" of.

Look at it like this: God Creates and only he has that power. Satan cannot create, only mock and distort. Name something that is "evil" and it will prove this point.

Abortion=murder of life
Contraception=sterility of the marital union
Rape=physical violence of the loving embrace