Urgent Questions

[jazzytakara]

[i]I posted this in the 'Ask a Church Scholar' section, but I really need answers soon that can help aid understanding, and for some of the below questions, my own understanding. Thank you![/i]


My boyfriend (who is agnostic) went to mass with me this morning. He is logic and facts based towards all aspects of life, so there are some aspects of Christianity and Catholicism that he struggles with believing and understanding. So as a result of today's mass he was left with many questions and an almost negative reflection on the event, and my own lack of knowledge was only enough to ease some of his concerns, thus I told him I would take it to the scholars and priests of Phatmass. His questions were as follows:

The homily was on not discriminating today, my boyfriend asked me why homosexuals are discriminated against, as finding love is something that makes everyone happy, should they not be allowed to marry the people they love. Why should we believe what the Bible says, as anyone could have written it. (I only have a basic idea, and I struggle with this too as I came from a liberal protestant church)

Secondly at many times in the mass today, there was mention of how those who believe will be safe nothing will harm them, the Lord will protect them. However, with his mom struggling with terminal cancer (and being a wonderful person who still suffers), the fact that she may die of cancer makes him disbelieve in Christianity as people suffer and die from horrible illnesses and injuries everyday. Awful things happen to people, such as rape, torture, etc. For instance, we are both Canadian and Canada was just put under threat of nuclear bombs from Iran. My boyfriend is also an avid weather nerd, what about natural disasters that destroy and end the lives of millions all over the world.

[missionseeker]

[quote name='jazzytakara' timestamp='1347224087' post='2480733']
[i]I posted this in the 'Ask a Church Scholar' section, but I really need answers soon that can help aid understanding, and for some of the below questions, my own understanding. Thank you![/i]


My boyfriend (who is agnostic) went to mass with me this morning. He is logic and facts based towards all aspects of life, so there are some aspects of Christianity and Catholicism that he struggles with believing and understanding. So as a result of today's mass he was left with many questions and an almost negative reflection on the event, and my own lack of knowledge was only enough to ease some of his concerns, thus I told him I would take it to the scholars and priests of Phatmass. His questions were as follows:

The homily was on not discriminating today, my boyfriend asked me why homosexuals are discriminated against, as finding love is something that makes everyone happy, should they not be allowed to marry the people they love. Why should we believe what the Bible says, as anyone could have written it. (I only have a basic idea, and I struggle with this too as I came from a liberal protestant church)

Secondly at many times in the mass today, there was mention of how those who believe will be safe nothing will harm them, the Lord will protect them. However, with his mom struggling with terminal cancer (and being a wonderful person who still suffers), the fact that she may die of cancer makes him disbelieve in Christianity as people suffer and die from horrible illnesses and injuries everyday. Awful things happen to people, such as rape, torture, etc. For instance, we are both Canadian and Canada was just put under threat of nuclear bombs from Iran. My boyfriend is also an avid weather nerd, what about natural disasters that destroy and end the lives of millions all over the world.
[/quote]

Well, we really don't discriminate against homosexuals (as a Church, our members, sad to say, are very susceptible to sin). We teach that homosexuals, like all other persons, are called to be chaste. Not because they are homosexual, but because they are persons. No one can just marry whoever they want. We can't marry married people, or those who are divorced (not with an annulment). We don't teach that heterosexuals can just go out and have reckless fun with whomever THEY please. We acknowledge that homosexual attraction is a really heavy cross to bear. But we call EVERYONE to chastity. Single heterosexuals, homosexuals, and married heterosexuals. It's a universal calling to chastity. Not discrimination. I hope that we -as a Church - are able to help others bear crosses that are so heavy.


The idea that those who believe will be safe is a hard one to not interpret incorrectly. (I would imagine that as a former protestant, you are familiar with prosperity theology?). The idea that because we believe in God, we will not have to suffer and will have plenty of money, is just plain wrong. It's a literal interpretation of the bible and helps to feed the idea that a God who loves us would not make a world with suffering. But suffering is redemptive. It helps to remember that even God suffered - physically and emotionally. He suffered one of the most horrific kinds of deaths in the history of the world. He experienced all of the joys and all of the sufferings that we do. One of the most poignant verses in the Bible consists of three simple words "And Jesus wept" (John 11:35, after his friend, Lazarus, died). He was so overcome with grief that the Christ Himself wept for his friend.

And those closest to Him? They suffered immensely. Mary *watched her son be crucified*. Many of His early followers were martyred. Still today, in many parts of the world they are persecuted and tortured. However, they are safe. They are in the knowledge of a God that loves them (though, it is hard to not struggle with feeling like there is no God. That He has forsaken them. But again, we see that from Christ on the cross. Once more, He shares in our suffering). The best way to explain is to say that their [i]souls[/i] shall not suffer Hell. Those who believe in Him and follow His commands will be saved.

As to weather, well one of God's greatest gifts to us was our freewill. It's also one of our worst failings. We find freedom in choosing God. But we often don't chose Him. The results of that are chaos and death. God is order. So not choosing Him, is choosing disorder (chaos). God is life, so not choosing Him is choosing death (death of the soul = separation from God. and bodily death. that did not exist before Adam and Eve turned from God the first time). Granted, us choosing to sneak the chocolate cookie from the jar as an 8 year old is not going to cause a hurricane. But because there is sin and disorder, there is suffering which comes in many forms and is sometimes caused by weather phenomena. But why does cause this? He doesn't. This one is hard for even theologians, sometimes. But God doesn't cause suffering. He allows it. Why? Because sometimes that's what's best for us. Sometimes that's the only way to save us.When a child wants to do something that is not beneficial to him, a good parent will not allow him. In soe ways, suffering is similar to being denied a "good" as a child. He gives us grace to come through the suffering.

Honestly when I imagine a world where there is no God, it's harder for me to reconcile suffering with living. If there is no God, no eternal life, no other reason for suffering than the random will of the world, what is the point? Why should a person struggle to live in poverty? Why should a person struggle through depression or other mental illnesses? Why should they suffer through cancer? If there is NO HOPE of anything beyond suffering, [i]why bother with continuing life? [/i]Why not just end it? Christians believe in uniting our suffering with those of Christ's, making them redemptive and worthwhile. Something to treasure and not something to loathe. If our [b]God [/b]is willing to suffer for us, why should we not embrace suffering ourselves? Catholics teach that there are three stages of the spiritual life: purgative, illumantive, and unitive. ( [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm[/url] ) Suffering is a teaching that is at the very base of Christianity.

[To Jesus Through Mary]

I am not going to try and tackle the homosexual thing in it's entirety. There are some great posts on this blog I follow:
[url="http://reverendknow-it-all.blogspot.com/2012/06/look-at-same-sex-unions-part-1.html"]http://reverendknow-...ons-part-1.html[/url] (there are 4 parts on same-sex unions)

Nut shell, it isn't a thing that the big bad Church wants to prevent homosexuals from finding happiness. Quite to the contrary. Homosexual acts are in and of themselves are disordered and morally evil. To allow someone to live in a state that is not natural to their good would be wrong. I will take an example given by Ven. Fulton Sheen and take it another step. Ok so I have a pencil. What makes it a "good" pencil? That is functions properly, for what it was intended- to write. Would it make a good can opener? No. Why not? Because that is not what it was created to do. What will happen if I try to take my pencil which was created to write and attempt to open a can with it? I will break the pencil and the can will remain unopened. I am not calling homosexuals bad- but the act of homosexual acts. So would it be right for the Church to stand by and allow these persons afflicted with same-sex attraction (SSA) to continue to try do something contrary to what they were created for and damage themselves int he process? Or would it be better to try and save their soul and lead them away from a life of disorder and sin.

And the 2nd question- basically the age-old question, why do bad things happen to good people. Sin. Freewill. God allows us to remain free to choose or not choose him. Pain was brought into the world through sin. Now this is a over simplified answer. I will try and find a good source that goes a little more into depth. But as for us being made "safe"- my soul is safe. God will not allow any evil to happen to me that he will not bring good from (past, present, or future). Remember the worse evil ever to happen in the world was the crucifixion. The great good to ever happen came from that, union with God through redemption. I may feel pain in this world, but there is always hope that God will bring a greater good from it. The most important thing to be "safe" is our souls. God never promised us a easy life, actually he promised the opposite. But this life is short and eternity is forever.

ETA: I forgot the most important part of Sheen's analogy: We are only good to the extent that we operate as we were created to function. Therefore sex outside of marriage (between a man and woman with the intention of union and openness to life) makes sex then damaging because it is not functions as it was created to function.

Edited September 9, 2012 by To Jesus Through Mary

[Not The Philosopher]

(keep in mind that I'm not a scholar or anything but just some guy with an internet connection)

With regard to marriage: putting the sacramental nature of it aside, the reason for why we have marriage is that we need children, and they need a stable environment to develop in. We as a society have an interest in privileging that sort of relationship. Same-sex unions by nature can't fulfill this criteria and hence can't simply be treated as if they were the same. But in modern times we've lost touch with this and have watered it down into a "best friends 4 lyfe" pact where the only thing at stake is the happiness of the people involved. So viewed from that perspective it's easy to fall into the mindset of "well, if it makes then [i]happy...[/i]"

The immorality of homosexual acts (read: acts, NOT people) is grounded in natural law. So even without the Bible, we'd have reason to condemn it. Basically, what it boils down to is this: the proper end of sexual activity is twofold: 1) to help the couple to bond and 2) to reproduce. Any sexual act which is not open to both of these things is immoral because it frustrates the purpose of sex in the first place. Homosexual activity obviously doesn't meet the second criteria. When we are figuring out whether something is contrary to our nature or not, we can't just have recourse to whether or not we desire it; we have to consider whether or not it is a fulfillment of our nature as human beings (i.e: I might really want to drop-kick that really annoying guy over there, and might feel really good about doing it, but engaging in antisocial, unloving behavior is contrary to my nature as a social being and as a being made for love).

Is it hard to ask people with homosexual desires to deny themselves? Yeah. I should know; I'm one of those people. But Jesus makes hard demands of us all; we're all broken by original sin and in serious need of help. Regardless of whatever your own problems might be, you're probably not doing it right if it doesn't at times feel like a sword is piercing your soul. Anyway it's not the bundle of desires within ourselves that defines who we are: it's what we decide to do with the hand that's been dealt to us.

As for why God permits suffering: well, the first thing to keep in mind is that the suffering of Jesus isn't supposed to take away our own suffering. Rather, it enables us to redeem ourselves through our suffering. God created us for a supernatural, otherworldly end. If this world were too much of a home for us, if God were to simply create some sort of worldly utopia for us, we would likely choose that world over God, which would be spiritual death. We need something as a motivator to pull us away from worldliness, in the same way that physical pain acts as a motivator to pull your hand away from the fire. Jesus healed people in order to demonstrate His authority, but the healing He came to do was to mend the supernatural bond broken between us and God. The amount of suffering in this world is immense, but, given the Fall, this might be the only world in which we have a shot at learning to love God again.

(man, this is all a little bit more hazy than I was hoping, but I hope it helps a bit)

[Not The Philosopher]

Whoops. Looks like I shouldn't have had dinner in the middle of typing my post.