Police Officers And Gun Training

[Jesus_lol]

^ and that is canadian police training.

Entirely different from a lot of American training, and especially the NYPD, which are generally regarded as having the worst gun training in america.

[Nihil Obstat]

My mom was re-qualifying just last week. Apparently the range officer watched her for a few minutes, then called all the other range officers, and they were completely amazed. They kept saying that her technique was the weirdest thing they've ever seen, and they didn't understand how she could hit anything, but she was more than good enough to qualify, and actually gets better the farther away the target is. They had everyone out watching trying to figure out how she was even able to hit the target.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1346997692' post='2479721']
My mom was re-qualifying just last week. Apparently the range officer watched her for a few minutes, then called all the other range officers, and they were completely amazed. They kept saying that her technique was the weirdest thing they've ever seen, and they didn't understand how she could hit anything, but she was more than good enough to qualify, and actually gets better the farther away the target is. They had everyone out watching trying to figure out how she was even able to hit the target.
[/quote]

Some people are just weird shooters. I have no clue how some people even hold a gun, let alone shoot the thing and actually hit their target.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1346995938' post='2479714']
the 12 lb trigger pull is very significant. it might not seem like it to a non shooter, but these are triggers modified to be more than twice as hard to pull as stock. in handgun shooting, trigger pull is very important for accuracy, as heavy or bad trigger pull will pull the gun in one direction when you pull the trigger, and especially in quick fire, make accuracy nearly impossible.
[/quote]

Are they worried the wind is going to blow too hard and squeeze the trigger or something? O_o

[stevil]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1346995529' post='2479713']
the shooting was terribly executed, but it was totally necessary for the cops to shoot. they approached the guy(who had already been told to them he had murdered a guy and had a gun) and he turned around and drew his gun aiming at the police. they were absolutely in the right to shoot him, its just how effectve they were at it that is in question.
[/quote]
I know it is easy to say in hindsight, without knowing all the facts.
But, knowing he had a gun and had just murdered someone, maybe the cops shouldn't have approached him in this public place?

[Maximilianus]

You'd think they would use pistols that didn't have the trigger pull of a double action revolver.
Supposedly It's to avoid unintended discharges from when cops put their fingers on the trigger instead of keeping them straight and off until they shoot.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346987028' post='2479665']
Texans are da bomb.
[/quote]

fixed

[color=#282828]I commend you to the intercession of the patron saint of ninjas, Hasan.[/color]

[Slappo]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1346995938' post='2479714']
the 12 lb trigger pull is very significant. it might not seem like it to a non shooter, but these are triggers modified to be more than twice as hard to pull as stock. in handgun shooting, trigger pull is very important for accuracy, as heavy or bad trigger pull will pull the gun in one direction when you pull the trigger, and especially in quick fire, make accuracy nearly impossible.
[/quote]

To give everyone a comparison on 12lb trigger pull, my hunting rifle is set to about a 2lb trigger pull, and I could drop it to I think 1.2lb if I wanted. 5lb trigger pull is pretty heavy for a rifle, 12 would be ludicrous, and I'd probably have trouble grouping anything.

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1347000513' post='2479729']
I know it is easy to say in hindsight, without knowing all the facts.
But, knowing he had a gun and had just murdered someone, maybe the cops shouldn't have approached him in this public place?
[/quote]

And how are they to know that he wasn't going to pull out the gun again and start shooting other people?

[havok579257]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1346983719' post='2479620']
Reading the article it seems that the shooter had one specific target whom he had already shot, he was leaving the scene, so it seems the danger had already passed.
Possibly a better approach would have been to follow him at distance and look to engage/detain at a point in time when there were less bystanders, yes they would have run the risk of him getting away, but they also would have had less risk of other people being hurt.
Certainly it would also make sense to ensure that if police are to be armed that they are also properly trained.
[/quote]

hindsight is always a wonderful thing. it let's you think through a situation and come to the best conclusion where as when something like this happens in real time you have split seconds to decide and then act.

[havok579257]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1346998630' post='2479724']
Some people are just weird shooters. I have no clue how some people even hold a gun, let alone shoot the thing and actually hit their target.
[/quote]

if you don;t know why then were you critizing the officers in the story?

[havok579257]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1347000513' post='2479729']
I know it is easy to say in hindsight, without knowing all the facts.
But, knowing he had a gun and had just murdered someone, maybe the cops shouldn't have approached him in this public place?
[/quote]

so they should have just let the guy fire and kill more people until he just decided to stop and leave the scene and then go after him? how were the cops to know he was done shooting? are they able to read minds?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1346973643' post='2479548']
[url="http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/24/multiple-people-shot-near-empire-state-building-in-manhattan-police-say/Our?intcmp=obinsite"]http://www.foxnews.c...intcmp=obinsite[/url]

All 9 bystanders hit during the recent New York shooting were hit by bullets fired by NYPD. 16 shots were fired by NYPD and 9, more than 50%, hit bystanders.

I understand the need to think on your feet and a life and death situation... but seriously? "Trained" police officers having less than 50% accuracy firing in the midst of innocent bystanders? They are lucky that none of the bystanders were seriously injured or killed.


Edit: Posted in debate table as I'm pretty sure it'll turn into one regarding gun safety gun laws and police training.
[/quote]Slappo, did you read the article?

"it appears that ll nine of the victims were struck by fragments or bullets fired by police

all by stray or ricocheting police bullets.

So it appears your idea of less than 50% accuracy is way off.
How many 'hits' were bullet fragments?
How many 'hits' were 'through shots'?
How many 'hits' were near miss ricochets?

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1346983719' post='2479620']
Reading the article it seems that the shooter had one specific target whom he had already shot, he was leaving the scene, so it seems the danger had already passed.[/quote]How would an officer know that the shooter intended to shoot only one person and wasn't walking to shoot another person in less than 10 seconds of spotting the shooter?
[quote]Possibly a better approach would have been to follow him at distance and look to engage/detain at a point in time when there were less bystanders, yes they would have run the risk of him getting away, but they also would have had less risk of other people being hurt.[/quote]
Did you read that the Police WERE following him, the shooter turned and pointed a gun at the officers? Also, how would the police know he wasn't headed into a business to shoot more people. Would the police know immediately where they victim worked, if he was with anyone, was the shooter leaving to pursue a companion of the first victim?

[quote]Certainly it would also make sense to ensure that if police are to be armed that they are also properly trained.
[/quote]And what information, data, other than biased speculation do you have available to determine what training the officers had and to also evaluate it's 'properness'?
[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1347000513' post='2479729']
I know it is easy to say in hindsight, without knowing all the facts.
But, knowing he had a gun and had just murdered someone, maybe the cops shouldn't have approached him in this public place?
[/quote]No need to let any of the known facts get in the way of speculating your way to biased conclusions.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1347047379' post='2479927']
Slappo, did you read the article?

"it appears that ll nine of the victims were struck by fragments or bullets fired by police

all by stray or ricocheting police bullets.

So it appears your idea of less than 50% accuracy is way off.
How many 'hits' were bullet fragments?
How many 'hits' were 'through shots'?
How many 'hits' were near miss ricochets?
[/quote]

Well if the bullet ricocheted then it means it hit something besides the human target they were shooting at, unless it ricocheted off his metal shirt? If it is a stray bullet that ricocheted, then it means it missed the target. If it is a stray bullet then it means it missed the target. All 9 bystanders were hit by bullets that did not hit the target. It also didn't mention if any of the bystanders were hit more than once or how many bullets fired missed the target and a bystander.

Police fired 16 bullets. 9 hit bystanders. The article didn't mention that any of those 9 hits on bystanders were from bullets ricocheting off of the target, nor did the article mention any of those 9 hits on bystanders being bullets that passed through the target. Unless you are using a "new math" where 9/16 < 0.5 than I'm pretty sure my comment was accurate. More accurate than those policemen anyways.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1347048541' post='2479945']
Well if the bullet ricocheted then it means it hit something besides the human target they were shooting at, unless it ricocheted off his metal shirt? If it is a stray bullet that ricocheted, then it means it missed the target. If it is a stray bullet then it means it missed the target. All 9 bystanders were hit by bullets that did not hit the target. It also didn't mention if any of the bystanders were hit more than once or how many bullets fired missed the target and a bystander.

Police fired 16 bullets. 9 hit bystanders. The article didn't mention that any of those 9 hits on bystanders were from bullets ricocheting off of the target, nor did the article mention any of those 9 hits on bystanders being bullets that passed through the target. Unless you are using a "new math" where 9/16 < 0.5 than I'm pretty sure my comment was accurate. More accurate than those policemen anyways.
[/quote]The article said they were ricochets, fragments, or stray bullets. A ricochet or stray is any bullet that either missed their target, went through the target, bounced off an object, or bounced off the target such as a bone. Fragments are pieces of the bullet. A bullet can fragment and exit a body if it strikes a bone (or dense mass depending on the type of round, ie hollowpoint,).
To perform your evaluation of the accuracy of the police if you would deduct 1-Fragments, and 2-Through Shots.
Once you had an idea of the accuracy of the shots, then you would have to use your expertise to evaluate the circumstances of the confrontation, time frame, and movement of the police and shooters before you could determine the compentency of the officers shooting ability.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Anomaly

[stevil]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1347047379' post='2479927']
How would an officer know that the shooter intended to shoot only one person and wasn't walking to shoot another person in less than 10 seconds of spotting the shooter?
[/quote]
How would they know that anyone carrying a gun isn't about to start shooting people?

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1347047379' post='2479927']
Did you read that the Police WERE following him, the shooter turned and pointed a gun at the officers? Also, how would the police know he wasn't headed into a business to shoot more people. Would the police know immediately where they victim worked, if he was with anyone, was the shooter leaving to pursue a companion of the first victim?
[/quote]
If the police didn't have guns they would have made sure they didn't engage in confrontatation, They would have kept at distance and called for backup, they would have watched from very far away, not giving the shooter any incentive to engage in a shoot out.
Even if they police had guns, they should have taken the same approach given there were so many bystanders around. This ought to be standard police procedure, they are there to protect the public not to endanger them.